Globalists making final push for depopulated one-world order: How do we resist?

Are you still trying to make sense of all the insanity in the world, or maybe trying to help a friend or family member make sense of it?

  • Drag queens in schools, libraries, even churches and other settings targeting children and families.
  • The seemingly unhinged attacks on everything that is good and necessary for a healthy society and the celebration of everything that is evil.
  • Food prices rising out of control, with whispers of famine on the horizon (See here, here and here).
  • The suicidal war on so-called “fossil fuels” like coal, oil and natural gas, when it’s becoming obvious (look at Europe) that no nation can survive without them.
  • The fact that the U.S.-led NATO and Russia-China are on a collision course toward World War III, with both sides threatening nuclear strikes.

For answers, consider reading and sharing my post from back on May 26, “Globalists have entered the kill phase of the Great Reset.”

A relatively small entourage of self-appointed globalist elites are using engineered famine, engineered pandemics, vaccines, and World War III to accomplish their long-stated goal of depopulation.

That’s why we call them global predators. These globalists are in the final phase, the kill phase, of destroying the post-World War II liberal world order, which must be accomplished before they can implement a new world order based on a cashless digital economy tied to a digital ID that tracks every person and assigns them a social credit score.

Before you can “build back better,” you must eliminate every trace of the old world order. Burn it all down. Destroy families. Destroy economies. Destroy currencies. Make people suffer.

And the most critical component of their deconstruction plan is depopulation.

Everything you see going on in geo-politics today is meant to drive depopulation. From LGBTQ mania (they don’t reproduce) and food shortages to endless genetically engineered viruses and the fanatical religious fervor for ever-expanding abortion rights, and the introduction of deadly “vaccines” — it all points toward one thing – more death.

And now we have found yet another smoking gun comment from a key globalist figure, Dennis Meadows.

Meadows authored the 1972 book Limits to Growth, which was endorsed by the Club of Rome and is still sold on its website today. The Club of Rome was the originator of the goals contained in United Nations Agenda 21 Sustainable Development, and chief among those goals was the need for fewer human beings on planet Earth. Meadows argued in his book for a drastic depopulation program.

Two years later, in 1974, Henry Kissinger authored the Kissinger Report, which followed up on the same theme put forth by Meadows, advocating a systematic reduction of the population of Third World countries through the introduction of birth control (including abortion), fomenting civil wars and orchestrated famine. Now those same strategic weapons are being turned inward on the United States and the West, with the addition of poisonous medical treatments disguised as “vaccines.”

Bill Gates, Klaus Schwab and all of the global predators of today are committed to this same agenda.

That’s why Schwab told us last year that “nobody is safe unless everyone is vaccinated.” On its face, such a statement makes no sense. Why would no one be safe unless everyone is vaccinated? If it’s a true vaccine, each individual who receives it should be inoculated, right? Until you understand that these vaccines were never intended to save lives but to destroy them, you can’t make sense of what these psychopaths are saying. It’s not about your health, it’s about killing some and making others sterile. That’s why they say you MUST get them. To refuse them makes you no better than a criminal. No other vaccine has ever been marketed with that kind of all-or-nothing bravado.

Bill Gates, in his 2010 TED Talk, also revealed his overriding agenda when he said the key to achieving “net zero” carbon emissions, was depopulation.

Gates said:

“So you’ve got a thing on the left, CO2, that you want to get to zero, and that’s going to be based on the number of people, the services each person is using on average, the energy, on average, for each service, and the CO2 being put out per unit of energy. So let’s look at each one of these, and see how we can get this down to zero. Probably, one of these numbers is going to have to get pretty near to zero.

“First, we’ve got population. The world today has 6.8 billion people. That’s headed up to about 9 billion. Now, if we do a really great job on new vaccines, health care, reproductive health services, we could lower that by, perhaps, 10 or 15 percent.”

So it’s not like we needed another confession, another confirmation, from yet another globalist insider. We already had Kissinger, Gates, Schwab, King Charles and many others. But in case you did need another, here is Dennis Meadows spilling his guts and shedding crocodile tears while saying how badly he wants the vast majority of us dead.

It’s truly amazing how these monsters speak in such warm and friendly tones as they’re telling their fellow human beings they need to die.

Meadows says the world’s population needs to be reduced from 7.5 billion down to 1 billion, but he “hopes” that we will all just agree to somehow be eliminated without becoming violent!

He knows damn well there’s no way to achieve that level of depopulation, we’re talking 87 percent, without spilling a lot of blood, on top of the blood that’s already being spilled on a daily basis through abortion and Big Pharma poisons.

As horrific as the abortion and Big Pharma industries have become, they can’t, on their own, get the global population down to 1 billion. They must trigger the next Great War. The preliminary phase of that war was kicked off when they released the deadly mRNA “vaccines” and pressured everyone to get them. It’s very telling that China isn’t giving its people the mRNA shots.

No, they are keeping their population strong while watching the Western nations weaken themselves. When we are sufficiently weakened by repeated jabs, look for China to make its move. Russia will draw us into war first, in Ukraine, and when enough of our military is deployed over there, that’s when China will make its move against Taiwan and possibly more.

They know the U.S., even before the shots were introduced and mandated on our military, was not prepared to fight on two fronts.

The runup to World War III will be gradual, collapsing our already weakened economy in the process. But civil war could break out sooner than world war, as it seems the U.S. deep state is already laying a narrative to accuse somebody, either the Russians or the Republicans, of somehow stealing the November 8 midterm elections.

So while many are predicting nuclear holocaust and World War III, I’m of the belief that civil war and economic collapse could come first.

Regardless of the order, most Americans today, unlike in the Great Depression, lack the resourcefulness and the skills to survive during an extended period of extreme economic hardship.

A friend who is an Iraq War veteran once told me that the one thing he learned in a war zone was that folks you thought were friends could turn on you overnight if it meant taking something you have in order to feed their starving children.

In the meantime, remember that we are the resistance to the Great Reset (aka global slave state). No politician, police force, no military unit is going to ride to our rescue. We defeat them through prayer, networking together and dedicated civil disobedience.

What do I mean by civil disobedience? Everything you hear the establishment “authorities” telling us to do through their mouthpieces in the mainstream media, do the opposite.

  • They say that to save grandma you must get another shot. Refuse.
  • They say cover your face with a mask. Refuse.
  • They say that to save the planet it’s time to trade in your gasoline-fueled car for an electric car. Refuse.
  • They say it’s better to buy things online, so buy in person whenever possible.
  • They say it’s more sustainable to eat bugs for protein. Refuse.
  • They say it’s time to give up control over your thermostat. Refuse.
  • They say it’s time to give up your right to defend yourself and your family with firearms and only the “authorities” should have guns. Refuse and take responsibility for your own security.
  • They say burning wood is bad, so fill your woodshed and burn baby burn.
  • They say it’s time to sell your land in the country and move into a smart city. Refuse.
  • They say it’s time to trade paper dollars for digital dollars. Refuse.
  • They say it’s time to get that digital health passport on your cellphone. Refuse.
  • Above all, refuse to remain silent. Speak truth to power in whatever circles you run.

You get the picture. We must become the refusniks of the 21st century.

Refuse their techno-totalitarian digital dark age, where they have told us that we will own nothing, not even our own bodies, and somehow learn to like it.

So prepare accordingly. And pray for a breakthrough that will get the world off this collision course it’s currently on, where both sides seem to want war.

And remember: We are not each other’s enemy. Your Democrat neighbor is not your enemy.

The enemy is the globalist predators driving a wedge between you and your neighbor. Because they are so few, they can only win if they divide us off from each other and get us to start killing each other. Don’t take the bait. Help your neighbors. Love your neighbors.

The fact is, these elites know they can never fully control 7.5 billion people. They need fewer of us and what better way to eliminate the freedom fighters – those who’ve adopted a physical, mental, emotional and spiritual warrior mentality – than to poison them with vaccines and send them to the front lines of the next big war.

Fear not. Our God laughs at the futility of those who think themselves greater than He, the one and only, the Almighty.

LeoHohmann.com is 100 percent reader supported, meaning we don’t accept any corporate ads or sponsorships, which is why we can independently bring you the real news, along with useful analysis. To help keep us going, you may send donations of any size c/o Leo Hohmann, P.O. Box 291, Newnan, GA 30264, or electronically below.

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296 thoughts on “Globalists making final push for depopulated one-world order: How do we resist?”

  1. Pingback: The one-world religion on full display as fake ‘faith leaders’ join globalist predators to push Earth worship at U.N. COP 27 conference – LeoHohmann.com

  2. Anthony William says:
    November 5, 2022 at 11:52 pm
    @ ‘Pray’ November 5, 2022 at 9:44 pm

    RE: Dispensationalism plays on division. Its aim is to divide and conquer the [lukewarm Laodicean] church. I cannot overstate the damage that dispensationalism is doing to the [Socialism’s apostate 501c3] church both now and in the future.

    Thank you, Anthony. Perfectly said, Amen!

    Like

    1. Israel365 News
      Religious Leaders Gather in Sinai to Receive “Climate Justice Ten Commandments” and Today’s Top Stories
      Adam Eliyahu Berkowitz
      November 7, 2022

      Some 40,000 attendees have flocked to the Sinai Desert including over 100 world leaders as well as leaders in business and other sectors. Christian, Muslim, Jewish, and other religious figures will participate in a UN conference on climate change that is taking place this week and next. In conjunction with the UN event, a group of faith leaders is taking an alternative approach, seeking a faith-based solution to the ecological crisis by promoting the “Ten Principles for Climate Social Justice” in a global initiative.

      The multifaith initiative- led by the Interfaith Center for Sustainable Development (ICSD), The Elijah Interfaith Institute, and the Peace Department – is part of the 27th Conference of the Parties to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (COP27), which is taking place in the Sinai Peninsula, in Sharm El Sheikh, Egypt from November 6-18.

      According to the Interfaith Center, the location of COP27 is especially meaningful because the Sinai Desert is “a place of revelation in the collective consciousness of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and others. It is a site for turning to God and receiving God’s multi-faith message,” as they explained in a press release.

      Like

      1. Thanks John for that valuable piece of info.

        These comments which I’ve quoted from the article suggest ‘New Age’ thinking.

        “Among climate experts and environmental activists, there are some who claim that the destructive process of climate change is irreversible, but Rabbi Neril noted that the Bible teaches otherwise.

        “Many people fear that humans have irrevocably destroyed the ecology of ‘Eden’ on earth,” Rabbi Neril explained. “But God created the world out of love for life on earth.”

        “We need to change the operating system that humanity generated and is degrading God’s creation,” he said. “We need to switch from greed, short-term thinking, and individualistic behavior to spiritual satisfaction, long-term thinking, and altruism. And by doing that we will address the symptoms of the problem and manifest a new earth. May God help us.”

        The Rabbi believes that we can rediscover Eden on earth in pursuit of “spiritual satisfaction”. He’s advocating the removal of individualism and he suggests replacing it with altruism. In this context I take altruism to mean denying individual rights for the common good.

        New Age thinking places an emphasis on being in harmony with the earth in order to achieve Utopia on this earth. I’ve said many times that the second beast mentioned in Revelation 13, will preside over a spiritual regime.

        I believe that the alignment of the major religions for a common cause will accelerate the merger of the apostate churches resulting in a world religion ready for the revealing of the man of sin.

        The deification of this earth is being used to shift the focus away from the true creator and to take from his glory. They are worshipping the creation instead of the creator. “Professing themselves to be wise they have become fools”

        They have changed the truth of God into a lie, and are worshipping and serving the creation more than the Creator to whom all glory and honour rightly belongs.

        But as bible believing Christians, we know that this earth is destined for destruction so we will not buy into this worship of the earth.

        Jesus said “Heaven and earth will pass away

        “35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

        Peter confirms this when he says
        “But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”

        AND

        “10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”

        Liked by 2 people

  3. Praysays:
    November 4, 2022 at 6:22 pm

    Pray!!! You are back!!! HOORAY!!!

    What you said about rereading the comments to learn kept replaying in my spirit, so I also reread the comments this afternoon to see what I could learn from this back-and-forth.
    And I had MISSED some BEAUTIFUL comments from you, so full of grace and love.
    You made me cry, cry, cry with your kindness and love.
    You are so sweet, and so kind, and so respectful, and so right, Pray. It’s all about love, and how we extend that love God first gave us, and point others to Christ. I wish I could be more like you. But I’m a hothead, and I will have some wood, hay, and stubble that is going to be burned up, that’s for sure. But I love the Lord and He loves me more.
    And I have only had the privilege of knowing one Messianic Jew in my life, so meeting you is such a joy!
    Thank you, especially Pray, for your personal testimony about the path that brought you to the Lord. People do need to hear that! It proves that GOD SEES US and LOVES US and CALLS US to HIM, and that life will never be the same after we come to Him!!!
    So I was thrilled to see that you came back to this comment section!
    I don’t know how to go about it, but I would love to keep in contact with you somehow. Your positivity and encouragement and love is exactly what I and so many people need today.
    And also blessings you Rela and Frank and Andy and Debra Foy!! We are a special bunch, since we get the scoffing from not only the secular world, but also the Christian world.
    And Leo, again, thank you for your brilliant work! I hope that this conversation has led you to examine you own beliefs as it has led me to examine mine. Some of the comments really made me question whether what I believe is true, and that is because we had the opportunity to hear opposing views (mostly opposing hahaha). Honestly, at times in this comment section it seems that there is some “wrongthink,” or that is a members-only club, but it is the “free market” of ideas that keeps everyone sharper and where learning only increases. If one side is cut-off or consistently condescended to, then it becomes an echo chamber like soooooo many other places on the web and media today. So thanks, Leo, for keeping the comments open because, like you kinda warned me, you could have shut them off or kicked me off! You are in a tricky spot as the owner/operator. But please stay true to the real American values we all love and respect you for upholding and writing about, and don’t hesitate to welcome your Pre-Trib Believers–we are a friendly and surprising bunch!
    I have learned tremendously from this, so thank you for your forum.
    God bless you!

    Like

    1. JesusisComing: Thank you for all your kind words – they’re overwhelming, really and I don’t know what to say! You have a sweet spirit and I appreciate your encouragement. It’s only because of you that I was able to keep on sharing here, and it finally opened me up to what the Lord really wanted me to say. Yes, I would love to stay in touch – would it be possible for us to “bump into” each other again here on Leo’s website when he posts other topics? Unless you know of some other online forum where we could go? With everything happening now, I think believers really need to stick together more than ever and stop being divisive. We don’t know if we might get a temporary reprieve here in the U.S. through the elections, or if it’s just going to totally head south. There is a bright light, though, elsewhere: Israel has her strong leader again! My husband and I were both so happy when Netanyahu won, and amazingly it happened on the 105th anniversary of the Balfour Declaration! If the Israeli government didn’t specifically plan for the election to happen on that date, then that was no coincidence. I believe it was the Lord shouting, “I LOVE YOU!!!” It really reminded me of His tender words to them in Isaiah:
      But Zion said, “The LORD has forsaken me,
      the Lord has forgotten me.”
      “Can a mother forget the baby at her breast
      and have no compassion on the child she has borne?
      Though she may forget,
      I will not forget you!
      See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands;
      your walls are ever before me.
      JesusisComing, I hope to be talking with you again, soon!

      Like

      1. HUGS, Pray!
        I refresh this page to see if you come back!
        What beautiful scripture.
        And I too am relieved that their strong leader is back. They will need him more than ever with all the craziness around them.
        Nor do I believe it was coincidence!
        You are totally right. Believers should stick together and connect with each other. I doubt I will post here or like that again; that was very unusual of me–I have been so sick at home since this discussion began; that’s why I had the opportunity to comment at length when the topic arose. Had I not been ill, my schedule leaves me limited time to post at all except the occasional encouraging word on YouTube. (Surely the Holy Spirit directed that conversation toward Jesus and the Lord used my sickness for some good.) But I do enjoy reading the comments when I have a spare 10 minutes!
        If you are looking for alternative, Truth-centered sites to add to your list, I do repeat the suggestion I made at the beginning. Should I see you there, I will make time to learn from you and share with you under the moniker Amanda Ane. I never have posted there before either, but it is a solid ministry with a comments section that edified my faith during Covid.
        HUGS again, Pray, and thank you for reaching out to me and to everyone with your incredible testimony!

        Like

      2. JesusisComing: I’m so sorry to hear about your illness and can really relate! Both my husband and I have had COVID twice. Didn’t they do a good job designing that virus?! We’ll be praying for you that you get well soon! When you feel a little better and have maybe seen what I just posted in regard to the “olive tree” and “fig tree,” I’m hoping you know what I’m referring to and can help everyone out. All of us can use a good lesson about the distinction between the two! In the meantime, at some point, I’ll be looking for you on the other website, under your name there. Be well!!

        Like

    2. attn. Pray and JesusIsComing:

      About Elijah Interfaith Institute that radiates the irresistible love of the messianic New Age upon you—

      The spirit of Elijah is wisdom, inspiration, friendship and hope across all religious traditions. Elijah deepens spiritual understanding of the coming messianic Mahdi among all religions. Elijah’s mission is to foster Zionism’s unity in diversity, creating a harmonious world. Elijah’s message: The world’s great religions radiate wisdom that can eternally heal the world. Deep level spiritual conversation across interreligious multi-faith lines enriches our inner lives, enhances our prayer and opens our hearts to the Universal Social Justice Gospel of God’s love. Discover unity and embrace interfaith diversity (wheat and tares). We are many and we are indiscriminately one.

      Like

  4. Oh my goodness!!!
    I just wanted to thank you Leo for another great article and agree that it is time for rational thinking people to just say”no” to all this globalist nonsense.
    I see that this is by far the most lengthy comment section since I started reading your articles on Olive Tree. I confess I did not read them all this time so if I repeat what someone else has written please forgive me.
    Ahh yes~ the pretrib rapture debate lives on and no doubt some will still be arguing against it even after we have gone (wink wink). I struggled with it for so long and listened to so many more learned people than myself express their views and opinions. I fervently prayed and sought the Scriptures for answers. About a year ago my pastor did a 3 part message on it that changed everything for me. He put it so simply at the end…
    We, as believers, are not appointed to God’s wrath which occurs during the tribulation. We are, while we walk on this broken earth, appointed to man’s wrath however…and we see every day just how ugly that can be! But man’s wrath pales in comparison to the wrath God will pour over the earth during those days. His patience will have reached its limit.
    If those of us who have stayed the course as His followers were appointed to God’s wrath then what was the “Cross” all about?

    Liked by 1 person

    1. YOU SAY
      “We, as believers, are not appointed to God’s wrath which occurs during the tribulation.”

      I SAY
      This is incorrect
      The wrath of God is not poured out until Christ returns AFTER the great tribulation. You need to read the bible properly and not be depending on the pretrib rhetoric

      Like

      1. Where I come from when He comes again that is it. No Pre this or post that. That’s it, finished , kaput but I realize a lot of folks have varying views on eschatology and I respect that. Thank you, all.

        Liked by 1 person

      2. Hello tradcat
        The pretribulation rapture is a serious matter because it confuses the sequence of events and wrong foots those who fall for it so that they are complicit in cloaking the revealing of the man of sin.

        Those who are warning against this hoax are being accused of crying wolf.

        When the man of sin is revealed the pretribbers will embrace him. They have already misinterpreted end time events and will do so again.

        Christ went into great detail about his coming and the rapture of his saints for good reason. He warned about the deception to come, and it is our duty as Christians to echoe Christ’s warnings and clear teaching.
        It is not good enough to just sit on the fence and be at peace whilst allowing the devil to pedal his lies, unopposed.

        Liked by 1 person

      3. Anthony William says:
        November 3, 2022 at 9:08 am

        RE: Hello tradcat…When the man of sin is revealed the pretribbers will embrace him. They have already misinterpreted end time events and will do so again.

        Yes!! Amen, Anthony William. Under the strong delusion of the Marxist Beast’s Universal Social-Justice Gospel, the Socially Secured virgins (i.e. noxious weeds) that the Devil deceitfully planted within Christ’s Bride will foolishly embrace him, having received his abominable SS#.

        It is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many lawless antichrist prophets have come to democratically rule and fundamentally transform the Beast’s Babylonian ‘UN-Global Village’, by which we know that it is the last hour. For arising out from among the ten horns of the 7-headed Beast, false messiahs (i.e. BHO) will appear riding upon their white stallions performing great technocratic signs of conquest and social wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. 1 John 2:18 Matthew 24:24

        Like

    2. Debra Foy says:
      November 2, 2022 at 5:21 am

      RE: If those of us who have stayed the course as His followers were appointed to God’s wrath then what was the “Cross” all about?

      Wise virgins in Christ’s Bride, like Faithful and Christian Pilgrim, have joyfully taken up their daily cross and fled out of the Marxist Beast’s abominable Social Security System in obedience to God’s Revelation 18:4 commandment. The LORD Jesus faithfully leads them into the socially un-secured ‘wilderness’ where they are fed ‘manna’ and safely nurtured. They are divinely sheltered away from God’s fiery wrath that Elijah and his companion pour out upon the Beast’s Harlot Laodicean (501c3) ’Synagogue of Satan’. That is what the “Cross” is all about for Christ’s wise virgin Bride, the Commonwealth of Israel, in Revelation 12: 6, 14.

      Woe, woe, woe to those lukewarm foolish virgins with empty oil lamps in hand, who are Socialistically secured from cradle to grave within Sodom’s demoncratic ‘City of Destruction’! In one hour their digitally-marked souls will be suddenly raptured up into the heavens within the ecumenical mushroom clouds of nuclear holocaust (Revelation 18:8).

      Like

  5. leohohmannsays:
    November 1, 2022 at 7:27 pm

    Those are very hard questions, Leo. Why He seemingly tests some more than others is not something I can pretend to know, much less explain, other it is for His purpose and glory. We can agree that there are rewards for the believer and indeed heaven will be unimaginably wonderful and that we have a just God. Everyone’s testimony is different, but we all fulfill our part in the Body of Christ. Consider 1 Corinthians 12.

    Are you asking because you think it’s unfair that some have been called to be martyrs and some have had lives of ease before the Tribulation? Do you think that a Post-Trib Rapture scenario makes the martyr’s sacrifice fairer?

    If this is your thinking, I can also ask, then, If believers are not Raptured before the Tribulation, should God resurrect the dead-in-Christ since the Church began so they can go through the testing and severity of the Tribulation too?

    “You seem to equate suffering here on earth as somehow the act of an unloving God, when in fact it’s Satan and evil that is doing the persecuting. “
    Satan and evil are doing the persecuting. But the Tribulation is simultaneously God’s judgment on the world. I am not confusing the two. The two are both taking place. Jesus is the One peeling the seals in Revelation. That is the main reason I believe the Church will not be present during the Tribulation—why would God punish His own? The sin-debt has already been paid!
    It is God’s judgment and His Day as supported throughout Scripture. It’s a time of His vexation and anger on the world, and The Great Tribulation is a specific time for God’s wrath. John 3:36 shows that God’s wrath remains on those who have not accepted Christ, 1 Thessalonians 5:9 states that God has not appointed us to wrath, and Romans 5:9 reads “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.”

    The Tribulation is a time to “finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity” as described in Daniel 9. End-time words and phrases like Man of Sin, Son of Perdition, Mystery of Iniquity, wicked, proud/haughty/lofty, rebellious, hardness of heart found in the Tribulation verses all relate to sin, and how the Lord will finally deal with the sin-filled, evil world as a whole.
    But again, our sins were paid for by Christ on the cross as far as believers are concerned, so why the judgment on us believers who are covered by the Blood? That’s a question that I cannot see answered justly or logically if the Rapture is not Pre-Trib.

    I believe The Time of Jacob’s Trouble is a major indicator that the time is specifically for Israel. Much of the prophecy regarding this time describes Jewish details, such as Daniel 9’s time appointed unto “thy people”—(Daniel’s) Jews—and his holy city Jerusalem. The Tribulation starts with the covenant confirmed with Israel and includes Two Witnesses (that are likely Moses and Elijah—prominent Jewish figures), the 144,000 Jewish males, the rebuilt Temple and animal sacrifices, the Abomination of Desolation, Jesus’ Matthew 24 advice to “pray that your flight be not on the Sabbath”…”flee to Judea”—it all centers on the Jews. It culminates with Israel finally receiving their Messiah and being reconciled to God.
    Christians already have received Him and are reconciled to God! Again, I cannot see how my loving, just God would put His beloved through the Tribulation or how we fit in logically.

    If it is a time that does include the Church, I believe Paul would have given us more practical information on how to navigate or “overcome” on earth at this most awful time in the history of the world, but His writing for this time period is less earthly and more about the heavenly…as you have mentioned about my comments. Perhaps because we are not on the earth at that time? I really would like to think so.

    There are many things I do not know, Leo, nor do I pretend to. These are just my thoughts and opinions and me “giving it a shot,” like you say. The more I read His Word the more I realize how small I am and how little I do know.
    But I know this: God loves me and you and everyone with a depth we cannot fathom, His ways are much higher than our ways, His Gospel of Grace is the good news we all need, and He is coming back for us! I think we can all agree on these.

    God bless you, Leo, and thank you again for your hospitality.

    Like

    1. @ Jesus is coming November 2, 2022 at 12:33 am

      Perfectly stated , I as well have studied both sides of the argument and come to the same conclusion as you to which you so well explained . Israel and the church are two different entities . I remember reading some time ago why there must be a pre trib rapture . If the church is still here when the anti-christ would appear it would know it instantly . 1 John 4;4 greater is He in me than he who is in the world .
      Blessings to all who have put their faith in the Lamb of God

      Like

      1. I had it pressed upon my heart during the middle of the night last night about this, whether Israel and the Church were separate, and Daniel chapter 9 came to me as strong evidence that they are indeed distinct in God’s eyes. Thank you, Frank, for bringing up the opportunity to share it.

        Daniel’s prophecy here gives a 70-week timeframe for Israel/the Jews.
        69 weeks have already passed from our perspective, which ended at Christ’s first advent when he rode into Jerusalem on the donkey.
        Then the clock stopped.
        It is still stopped from our perspective.
        The clock will not begin again until the Tribulation starts, which is referred to as Daniel’s 70th week.

        Why did God stop the clock? What happened in the gap?
        Christ was crucified, resurrected, and salvation was extended to the Gentiles. For almost 2000 years, salvation by the Gospel of Grace has brought in billions of Gentile believers into God’s master plan of salvation for the world. It is why I and many call this time period the Church Age, or the Age of Grace. It’s been a “time-out” period as far as the Jews are concerned, but redemption has been opened up to the whole Gentile world, for the reason of provoking the Jews to jealousy, as scriptures state in Deuteronomy 32:21 (which in itself is more proof that Israel and the Church are separate).

        It’s believed that when the timeclock begins again with the start of the Tribulation, the Church Age/Age of Grace, will close, and God will resume his “regularly-scheduled program” with the Jews just as He left off 69 prophetic weeks ago and bring it to the end. As we know, He will work all sorts of supernatural wonders with Israel as he did throughout the Old Testament and through Christ’s time on earth.
        Has the Church AS A BODY ever seen the types of miracles that Israel has? No. Miracles have happened for us on an individual basis, but as a corporate body, the Church has seen nothing like Israel has. Again, this reminds me of John 20:29: “Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.”

        It is my opinion, but what greater blessing for the Gentiles or what greater provocation for Israel than a pre-Trib Rapture?

        God bless you, Frank!

        Like

      2. Amen to that, Jesus Is Coming. Excellent. It is interesting to note that the Essenes, who believed in a Messiah who is the son of God and divine, and prophesed that he would die for sins in 32 A.D., called the age that Messiah would inaugurate with his death and resurrection, the age of Grace (per Dr. Ken Johnson, who translates and analyzes DSS documents). Quote from Josh Peck, another DSS scholar: “…the Essenes prophesied that there would be the unique 50-year period in which judgment would befall sinners and the Messiah would come to rule the nations. Hence they did in fact set forth the prediction that 2025 would be when the Tribulation would begin (and more likely, anytime after that year, within a 50-year period).” In other words, the Messiah would return during the last Jubilee, or 50-year period (2025 and 2075). As Dr. Ken Johnson has said, the Essenes have not failed in any of their predictions.

        Like

      3. Rela—then the Essenes were privy to information that neither Jesus nor the angels have concerning the time of His Second Coming (Matt 24:36)??

        Liked by 1 person

      4. He said no man knows the day or the hour–not no man knows the last 50-year jubilee on God’s calendar.

        Like

      5. Rela—where does Jesus or anywhere in the Bible mention anything about the last Jubilee corresponding to the 2nd Coming?

        It should be noted that the Essenes did not acknowledge Jesus was the Messiah and they were his contemporaries. So if their predictions are so accurate, how did they fail to recognize the Messiah who walked and preached throughout Israel during their time?

        Liked by 1 person

      6. Rela, back in 1988 there was a man who argued, “No man knows the day or the hour but by assembling various Bible passages from different books in the Bible and bits of obscure knowledge about ancient Hebrew holidays and traditions I know Christ will return in October of 1988. Buy my book, ’88 Reasons Why the Rapture Will Occur in 1988.'”

        Like

      8. @Frank M November 2, 2022 at 1:07 pm

        Hello Frank .

        YOU SAY
        Israel and the church are two different entities

        I SAY
        The spiritual Israel and the Christian church are one in Christ. We are all Abraham’s seed.

        Galatians 3
        “26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

        27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

        28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

        29And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

        YOU SAY
        If the church is still here when the anti-christ would appear it would know it instantly . 1 John 4;4 greater is He in me than he who is in the world .

        I SAY
        The church will be here and will identify the man of sin, I am not worried about being deceived.
        I am concerned that so few Christians are willing to testify against the revealing of the man.

        The testimony of the true church has been dwarfed by the lies of the apostate church. The apostate church will embrace the man of sin when he is revealed.
        The true church will testify against the man of sin and will be persecuted by the apostate church under the command of the man of sin.

        The apostate church has already believed Satan’s dispensationalists lies and are already confused about sequence of events concerning the timing of the revealing of the man of sin and of the rapture.

        They have already abandoned the truth and for this reason God will send them a strong delusion so that they will accept the man of sin and will be damned because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

        2nd Thessalonians
        11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
        12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

        The apostate church has already succumbed to the devil’s lies and will do so again when the man of sin is revealed.

        “1 John 4;4 greater is He in me than he who is in the world .”

        I believe that the majority of those who continuedly promote dispensationalism and the pretribulation rapture despite having been made aware of the clear teaching of Christ and his apostles, do NOT have the Holy Spirit which is why they despise the truth.

        They are spiritually blind.

        Liked by 1 person

      9. @Anthony William Nov 3, 2022 9:31 am

        Hello Anthony ,

        Rev. 13:7 says the anti-Christ will be given the power to make war against the saints and to overcome them. But in Matt. 16:18 Jesus said the gates of Hell will never overcome the Church. Therefore the saints in Rev. 13:7 are tribulation believers, not the Church. Rev. 13:7 takes place shortly after the beginning of the Great Tribulation, and by then the Church will already be gone.

        However, we should all remember that the Church has always undergone persecution, and is experiencing some of the worst right now. On average more Christians are dying for their faith in the world today than did during the Roman persecution of the 1st and 2nd centuries.

        The only persecution the Church will escape is that which takes place during the last seven years before the 2nd Coming, the period known as Daniel’s 70th Week, or the time of God’s wrath.

        Blessings

        Like

      10. Frank–you said: Rev. 13:7 says the anti-Christ will be given the power to make war against the saints and to overcome them. But in Matt. 16:18 Jesus said the gates of Hell will never overcome the Church. Therefore the saints in Rev. 13:7 are tribulation believers, not the Church.

        Your reading of “will be given the power to make war against the saints and to overcome them” assumes that “to overcome them” indicates a sure defeat and extermination of those saints. But the phrase “to overcome them” should be read rather as the GOAL of the anti-christ’s war against them, not something that will occur with certainty. For example, if I were to say: “Hannibal was empowered by Carthage to make war upon the Romans and to overcome them” To overcome the Romans was the goal, but historically he ultimately didn’t defeat them and wipe Rome off the map.

        Christians have been warred upon, persecuted, martyred throughout history, but the Church continued on through it all and overcame its enemies. The anti-christ spirit has been at war with the Church from the beginning as the letters of John attest. The goal of Satan is to overcome the Church and its saints, but he will not. Look again at the phrase “The Gates of Hell”. What does that image suggest? A fortress, and it is the Church that is beating on those gates to overcome Satan. We are not on the defense, Satan and his minions are.

        Liked by 1 person

      11. kayjae says:
        November 3, 2022 at 1:55 pm

        Elohim’s holy Saints have joyfully taken up their martyr’s cross and daily conquered Satan by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony. And they did not love their lives so as to shy away from death.

        Revelation 15: 1 Then I saw another great and marvelous sign in heaven: seven angels with the seven final plagues, with which the wrath of God is completed. And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, beside which stood those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name. They were holding harps from God, and they sang the song of God’s servant Moses and of the Lamb: “Great and wonderful are Your works, O Lord God Almighty! Just and true are Your ways, O King of the nations!…

        Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven saying: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down—he who accuses them day and night before our God. They have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony. And they did not love their lives so as to shy away from death. Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them!

        Like

      13. @ Frank M November 3, 2022 at 12:15 pm

        Hello Frank .
        First of all, the beast is not mentioned in Mat. 16:18

        In Mat. 16:18 Jesus is referring to Hades which is the place of the dead.
        The word ‘gates’ is a translation of the Greek word (πύλη pule poo’-lay) which is a reference to imprisonment.

        Hell is a translation of the Greek word Hades which is a reference to the place of the dead.

        What Jesus is saying is that Christians will not be left in hades. In fact, our bodies will be raised when Christ returns to gather his elect saints.
        That’s why Paul says “O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

        “54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

        55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

        56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.”

        So, Mat.16:18 cannot be used to separate the tribulation saints from the church. The saints ARE the church and the martyred tribulation saints will be among the saints who are resurrected before the rapture takes place.

        I hope this helps you to understand Mat. 16:18.

        BTW. The bible does NOT say that the tribulation will last seven years. The seven-year tribulation is a notion based on the misinterpretation of Daniel 9:27
        And the gap (great parenthesis) which dispensationalists introduce between the 69th week and 70th week is make believe, in an effort to conform the scriptures to a false doctrine.

        This false doctrine claims that the antichrist forms a seven year treaty with the Jews. during the tribulation. But the bible says no such thing.

        You cant build doctrine on conjecture which is based on a twisting of the scriptures.
        Daniel 9:27 makes no mention of the antichrist, nor does it say who the treaty is with.

        PS For the record, I used the term ‘antichrist’ because it’s the term which is used by the dispensationalists in their misinterpretation of this verse.

        The term ‘antichrist’, as used by John, is a general term and is not specific to any one individual.

        Frank, I would encourage you to read the bible with your own eyes and not through the tangled web of dispensationalism.

        I’ve listed below, the translations of the words ‘gates’ and ‘hell’ which you might find helpful.

        #4439 πύλη pule {poo’-lay}
        1) a gate
        1a) of the larger sort
        1a1) in the wall of either a city
        1a2) a palace
        1a3) a town
        1a4) the temple
        1a5) a prison
        2) the gates of hell (likened to a vast prison)
        3) metaph. the access or entrance into any state
        #0086 ᾅδης hades {hah’-dace}

        1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
        2) Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
        3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hell

        Liked by 2 people

      15. You are wasting your time, Anthony. Their minds are made up.
        Maybe you could present your argument as a blog post or podcast video. You could provide a more thorough argument in that format.
        If you do, I’ll read or watch it. 🙂

        Liked by 1 person

      17. Anthony William says:
        November 3, 2022 at 5:07 pm

        Hello Anthony ,

        Advice accepted, that is why I am on here reading every comment and checking the scriptures and listening to Holy Spirit’s guiding.
        But please expand on this ; When the man of sin is revealed the pretribbers will embrace him. They have already misinterpreted end time events and will do so again.
        I know I might not be the sharpest pencil in the box sometimes but why would the pretribbers be deceived over post tribbers , we’re all looking up and waiting for the same Messiah . I have been sealed with the Holy Spirit and I know my name is in the book of life because of the blood of Christ . What disadvantage does beleiving in pre trib rapture have anything to do with that .

        In Him , Frank

        Like

      18. Hello Frank

        Because pretribbers have already bought into the lie. They have already been deceived. But I believe that some pretribbers will see the through the lie if they read the scriptures honestly and I’m hoping that you will be one of them because you are still asking questions. You have not hardened your heart.

        The pretribbers are NOT looking for the same Messiah. They are looking for a separate event of their own making which is not in the bible.
        The true Messiah has described very clearly his coming and the rapture of his elect saints.
        But the pretribbers have rejected Christ’s glorious coming and have moved it to the back of the theatre so that they can focus instead, on their deluded notion of an invisible pretribulation rapture which has nothing to do with Jesus Christ.

        They are insulting the King of Kings and God is watching this.

        Many dispensationalists have hardened their hearts and do not search the bible for the truth. Instead, they search for any verses they can twist in order to support their false doctrine.
        These people have not received a love for the truth and will therefore embrace the man of sin because they are of the devil and do not have the Spirit of truth. They have built on a false dream and will reject anything that spoils their party.

        True faith is evidenced by an adherence to the clear teaching of Christ and his apostles. If a person steadfastly refuses God’s truth and opposes it. Then I have to be honest and say I don’t believe that person has the Holy Spirit.

        The apostate church is full of people who are fooling themselves that they have the Holy Spirit.

        Paul in 2nd Thessalonians refers to the apostasy which will precede the revealing of the man of sin. The apostasy is a falling away/ rebellion against God and his truth.

        Paul is cautioning the Thessalonians against embracing a pretribulation rapture and it is with this in mind that he describes the scenario of what happens to those who have not received a love of the truth.

        “11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
        12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

        So, it is safe to say that the time will come when the apostate church will be given over to strong delusion and will be damned for not believing the truth but instead having pleasure in unrighteousness.

        The increasing opposition to God’s truth and the dismantling of God’s word by the dispensationalists and pretribbers is APOSTASY!

        Liked by 1 person

      19. @ Rachel Nichols November 3, 2022 at 6:58 pm

        Hello Rachel, your advice is well timed because I’ve recently been thinking of making videos and putting them up on YouTube. I get frustrated arguing with pretribbers but on the positive side it motivates me to study the bible more tenaciously and I’m defending God’s truth for the sake of those seek it.
        I might tap into your expertise at some point when I have something prepared.

        Like

      20. leohohmann November 3, 2022 at 7:08 pm

        Thanks, Leo, for the encouragement. It means a lot. I feel that God might be leading me into a new kind of ministry.

        If I make any videos, I will let you and Rachel know.

        Liked by 1 person

    2. JesusIsComing,

      You might as well give it a rest. Believe me, I’ve tried. If you will notice, Anthony must continually distort Scripture and rarely cites anything except out of context. I simply haven’t bothered to reply anymore, as he cannot even answer why the dispensationalists he so despises were the only ones in the 1800s who accurately looked forward to Israel literally be reconstituted as a real, physical nation.

      I originally wanted to reach out to Rachel since I started posting here during an incredibly hard time in my life. Rachel said she was very afraid of the coming Tribulation and I started to try to encourage her with the truth.

      I used to be a post-tribulationist until I actually did research for YEARS. But their eyes are not open and it is futile to do anything except bring them the truth and then let them alone. I grieve for them as well, they are in danger and scoff at the truth because they do not know or understand, and it robs them of joy and twists their minds.

      They even accuse pre-tribulationists as being “new”, which is inaccurate, and they ignore the fact that Jesus and Paul preached a pre-tribulation rapture. They cannot come up with any decent argument save deflections, nor can they use Scripture to support their position.

      I, too, used to believe as I mentioned because of a hopelessness – “God lets Christian be martyred, so we’re dead ducks too.”

      They just don’t see how important the distinction you and I have pointed out is: that the Tribulation is GOD’S Wrath, and the Rapture is like God pulling Noah from the Flood, Lot out of Sodom, Rahab from the destruction of Jericho, etc. It is consistent, and one can see if one truly looks.

      There will still be martyrs, people will come to Christ AFTER the Rapture (see the Great Multitude). But it will be like the Old Testament again, the Restrainer (Holy Spirit) is gone from the earth.

      I don’t know if post-tribulationists will come in the Rapture since they are the foolish virgins who were not prepared and think they still have time. Why would Christ warn us to always be alert because we don’t know the hour if a post-trib Rapture is coming? They merely must wait for the the Antichrist to sit in the Temple in Jerusalem and declare himself to be God and then wait 3.5 years. How is that in accord with “No one knows the day or the hour”?

      Yet they accuse us. They reject sound doctrine and scoff.

      So yes, it is grieving to me, but it is a prison they have made for themselves, and mayhaps they will escape as I did. But telling them about it repeatedly is just a waste of breath. Let them be miserable and think upon the sorrow before them – perhaps God will give them their wish, if they are truly unfortunate.

      None of their preparations would matter anyway when there is no water, God has firebombed the planet almost into oblivion, and every human’s hand is raised against them. It is pride, pure and simple. You can’t be prepared.

      FYI, I worked as a data analyst with the US Air Force for years. My grandfather was in charge of disaster preparedness at Oak Ridge. I *know*. If it were not so, then we wouldn’t have memes on Murphy’s Law…

      Why they desire to live on earth instead of go to Heaven which is *supposedly* where they want to go is beyond me. It is like Lot’s wife turning back to Sodom.

      Like

      1. Again, Andy, you throw around a lot of accusations based on your own experience. I am personally a very happy, well-adjusted middle-aged man. Not at all “miserable,” thank you. Say whatever you want brother but please refrain from throwing accusatory barbs. People are complex. And that goes for Christians, too. We never know what someone is going through and calling them “miserable” because of how they interpret the Word is not going to edify anyone at any point. We all must make peace with our beliefs. You have made your decision and we have made ours. I really wish we could put this whole thing to rest now because one thing I do agree with you on, that nothing said here on this platform is going to change anyone’s mind.

        Liked by 2 people

      2. Leo, I hope you and others on this website don’t think I’m crazy for repeatedly saying I’m leaving for good, and then I wind up coming back again. But, when I saw Andy’s comments and then yours, I just wanted to respond and I will then respectfully defer to your wishes to close this debate. I’m a first-timer commenting on a Christian website and was looking forward to a “safe place” to connect with my brothers and sisters. But I didn’t expect to get beaten up just because I believe in a pre-tribulation Rapture. My husband is a moderator on a website that debates Calvinist vs. non-Calvinist beliefs (he’s not a Calvinist). He started out as a contributor, so he has experienced the heat of the battle for some time. I was sitting here in the kitchen across from him, simply astonished and asked him, “How do you deal with this?” He started chuckling and told me he often has to delete some comments before they go live because some people can get pretty aggressive and abusive. It was only because of the kindness of JesusisComing that I continued to post here and not run. I had no idea it would lead me to share my testimony about a wound that I’d been pushing down inside me for years. I do believe that both pre- and post-tribbers will be taken up in the Rapture. But I also believe that when each of us stands before the Bema seat of Christ and are looking Him straight in the eyes, He’s not going to judge us on how zealously or artfully we defended our views, but how we treated our brothers and sisters when we were doing that. Last thing, I want to thank you, Leo, for providing us an opportunity to come here, and wanted to add that I think you are really “gutsy” in your audacious posting of the truth about what’s happening here in our country and around the world. I’m thankful we have watchmen on the wall like you and others. Now, whether you all believe it or not, since I’ve said it so many times, I’m outta here.

        Like

  6. leohohmannsays:
    November 1, 2022 at 3:12 pm

    Thank you, Leo, for your kindness and for the questions. Whether this topic is boring is up to interpretation—this discussion is in the comments section, where we should be allowed to speak freely without worrying if the reader is entertained. But it is your site, Leo, and I do not want to continue in circles either. So thank you for reaching out to me.
    I do not dispute the persecution and martyrdom of Christians throughout history, nor do I disagree that persecutions will increase until Christ’s return. That claim is Biblical. I don’t understand where in my comments I ever lead one to think that. And yes, I agree that the West will not be immune to persecution or martyrdom during the Tribulation.
    Have Christian individuals been called by God (since the Church began) to give up their lives? Yes. But is the Church, as a WHOLE, called to give up her life for her faith? Absolutely not. That would make Christianity no different from Islam. Christianity is unique in that our loving God has already completed that sacrifice for us—it is DONE. In other religions, such as Islam, it is DO, DO, DO in order to receive salvation from their god, often to the point of martyrdom. So where we seem to disagree on this question leads back to legalism. I believe the sacrifice was finished once and for all by Jesus Christ.
    But yes, Leo, the Great Tribulation will be a much worse time, which is why it is called Great in Matthew 24:21 as you say. I don’t even want to imagine it. But if I were faced with that choice or “test”, the Holy Spirit would lead me as Jesus describes in Mark 13:11:
    11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

    Right now, before the Tribulation, I would like to think I would not try to save my own skin by denying Christ, but one does not really know unless he is in that life-or-death position. When tempted, what would one really do? I am reminded of Peter’s denial and the scattering of the other disciples. Jesus’ own disciples failed that “test,” and they walked with Him, talked with Him, touched Him, ate with Him, witnessed His miracles for three years! AND they were not in the Tribulation!
    If His own disciples cannot pass the test, then what are our chances? Really!!! It’s discouraging to think about. That’s why I believe the Church is spared from this testing in Revelation 3:10. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. And perhaps that’s a connection to what Jesus says when he says in John 20:29, “Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.” I think the Rapture is a blessing.

    To answer your question, with a humble heart, if the Tribulation occurs and we as Christians remain, then I’m likely called to martyrdom in that totalitarian system and will absolutely need the Holy Spirit’s strength to do so, as have the martyrs throughout history. But that is if I have survived the world wars, famines, pestilences, inflation, evil and violence, asteroids, earthquakes, demons/aliens, fires, hail, blood, deadly animals, poisoned and blood-turned waters, intense heat, and fear, WHILE resisting the deception and Mark of the Beast. I’d be praying for death, a quick and painless one, for myself and all my loved ones and fellow believers– I don’t see how that scenario or that mentality aligns with God’s love for believers or His justness or His beautiful, repetitive examples of deliverance throughout the Bible. (So perhaps this discussion is more about how one views God?)
    In my opinion, to see the Tribulation as a privilege requires pride in one’s self plus a major underestimation of how dreadful and fearful and full of suffering that time will be. I see it as a judgment, and the Bible supports this. It is a time to punish the proud, lofty, evil, Christ-rejecting inhabitants of the earth and redeem Israel. Believers are already redeemed through Christ, so I believe Christians will be delivered from this time in the Pre-Trib Rapture.
    Thank you again, Leo, and God bless you as well.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. You said, “I don’t see how that scenario or that mentality aligns with God’s love for believers or His justness or His beautiful, repetitive examples of deliverance throughout the Bible. (So perhaps this discussion is more about how one views God?)”
      I think perhaps this is where you get closest to the point of disagreement. I don’t pretend to understand the mind of God. One of the Psalms I think even says, “who can know the mind of God,” and yet we all give it our best shot, don’t we? Myself, I do not see suffering as a punishment or coming from a punishing God who somehow gets gleeful satisfaction out of punishing his followers. Rather, I see suffering as a place in our human existence where we can feel closest to God. Personally, I can attest that I feel closer to God when I’m sick or not feeling well. And in all of the testimonies I’ve heard from or read about from folks like Pastor Wurmbrand in Romania or Deitrich Bonhofer in Germany, they say they grew in their relationship with Christ more when they were in those prison cells than they did in all of the good times beforehand. I’m not suggesting we should wish for persecution but I am saying that there’s something there that most of us don’t understand because we have no experience with it and have been conditioned to fear it or view it as some kind of punishment from God. What is it that led the martyrs to smile and have a glow about them as they were burned at the stake? Have you ever read Foxe’s Book of Martyrs? If not I really encourage you to do so because those folks never looked at it as somehow a good work that helped them earn their way into heaven. No, not at all, as we are saved by faith alone and the work was all done by Christ on the Cross. And yet, he did say “take up your cross and follow me,” indicating that it would not be all a bed of roses once you get saved and that maybe there was more to the Christian life than just getting saved and watching the blessings fall your way. Maybe it’s about letting God cultivate a closer relationship with you, and one of the ways that’s done is through suffering. Does that make sense? Thanks for sharing your take and for allowing me to share mine.

      Liked by 2 people

      1. Thank you, Leo. I do have that book.
        No way are we promised a bed of roses. It was suffering that led me to the Lord, but that is not true for everyone. I know many a hardened heart against God because of their suffering— It doesn’t always lead one to the Lord.
        So we just disagree. Because we see through a glass dimly…
        I simply can’t imagine My God and Father would “test” His Church as a whole like that by putting us through the Tribulation in order for us to be closer to Him. We are already in Christ…
        Thanks again, Leo.

        Like

      2. If He tests some why wouldn’t He test others? If He does decide to test you and as a result you turn away from Him, were you ever one of His to begin with? Or were you just along for the party? I know these are hard questions but they must be confronted by all of us. I’m not exempting myself. I struggle with these questions, too. Better to struggle now than wait until you’re faced with a big test and get caught unawares.

        Liked by 3 people

      3. “I simply cannot imagine My God and Father would ‘test’ His Church as a whole….” Again, you seem to equate suffering here on earth as somehow the act of an unloving God, when the fact is it’s Satan and evil that is doing the persecuting. Remember Jesus said to Peter, “Satan has asked to sift you…” and Jesus let him sift Peter that very night. Peter failed, but he learned from his failure and repented. No, He never promised ease and comfort in this life, or that He wouldn’t let Satan sift us. But He did promise glory and the most magnificent existence in the next life when we’re in heaven with Him. That’s where you get your rewards, not here. Not sure why you keep confusing the two. I find that very perplexing.

        Liked by 2 people

    2. JesusIsComing says:
      November 1, 2022 at 6:00 pm

      RE: Have Christian individuals been called by God (since the Church began) to give up their lives? Yes. But is the Church, as a WHOLE, called to give up her life for her faith? Absolutely not.

      Have the virgins in Christ’s Bride been called by God (since the Church of Israel’s Commonwealth began) to deny themselves by taking up their martyr’s cross daily and joyfully losing their carnal-minded self-willed lives? Yes, absolutely! But is the body of Christ’s wise-virgin Bride, as a WHOLE, called to corporately take up her cross and lose/crucify her sinful, carnal-minded, self-willed life in joyful obedience to the Spirit of Christ’s holy faith? Absolutely !

      Many ‘virgins’ in Christ’s Bride foolishly pretend to understand the mind of Christ as they share their best carnal-minded ideas on the topic.

      1 Corinthians 2: 9- No eye has seen no ear has heard no heart has imagined what God has prepared for those Saints who love Him.” But God has revealed it to us by the Spirit of Christ’s mind. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows man’s thoughts except for his own spirit within him? So too, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. And this is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

      The natural carnal-minded man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual born-again man judges all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone’s judgment. For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ. For we have been baptized with the mind of Christ’s Spirit, who intimately shares His deepest thoughts with us.

      Liked by 1 person

    3. The problem I have with the pre-trib Rapture theories is that it seems to emphasize that our salvation is really the Rapture escape hatch and that becomes the sum of “our blessed hope”.

      Christianity generally is at its weakest point in history right now. No great martyrs among us, nor according to the pre-trib Rapture interpretation will martyrdom be required of us. Our hope seems to come down to hoping that we don’t have to face our own death or any serious persecution before the Rapture. We’ll just disappear suddenly. I find the pre-trib Rapture view ultimately pernicious to Christian witness and faith which is why I don’t subscribe to it anymore.

      Our salvation has always been in our Transformation in Christ and that begins in this life through repentance and obedience to God’s will. So we, who are made in the image of God, must be about the business of becoming LIKE Christ while we are in this life and not fritter our time and energy worrying about the Tribulation and whether or not we’ll escape it. Because whether you get martyred through a “tribulation” or the “Great Tribulation” or die from cancer or a car accident, in any case, that emphatically is the moment the world ends for you. The End of the World should not be our primary concern–that’s God’s business– because our own end for each of us will very, very likely occur first. What are you doing to prepare for that?

      While it remains very questionable whether current events are signaling the imminent End of the World, certainly we are faced today with the End of an Age and this is causing all kinds of shock waves globally. The history of the world has seen these turnings before, and yes, they are frightening. After 2000 years Western civilization is declining rapidly, mostly because Christianity in the West has been in big decline itself for centuries. That’s due to our neglect, conflicts, heresies and sin. So instead of everyone taking the black pill of waiting for the “Great Tribulation” and our Great Escape through the Rapture, we need to take back our faith and our culture that was once built by it from the Satanic elements that have so invaded it. Our original commission was to preach the gospel and baptize the world into Christ, not abandon it through false hopes of escape.

      Liked by 1 person

    4. Andy November 4, 2022 at 4:54 pm

      YOU SAY
      If you will notice, Anthony must continually distort Scripture and rarely cites anything except out of context.

      I SAY
      You had better back your statement or else keep quiet.

      YOU SAY

      I simply haven’t bothered to reply anymore, as he cannot even answer why the dispensationalists, he so despises were the only ones in the 1800s who accurately looked forward to Israel literally be reconstituted as a real, physical nation.

      I SAY

      You are incorrect

      Theodor Herzl: Was in fact the pioneer who had a vision of a political state of Israel. He was not a Christian dispensationalist He was actually a secular Jew who sought to create a Jewish political state where Jews could escape anti- semetism

      Herzl literally wrote the book on the Jewish state called ‘Juden Staat’ which led to the movement which would later be called Zionism. It
      was Theodor Herzl: who established the annual Zionist congress.at Basil .

      The state of Israel was officially founded based on the principles of Theodor Herzl’s writings.

      Israel’s establishment as an independent, sovereign state was officially declared in Tel-Aviv on Friday May 14, 1948, by Zionist leader David Ben-Gurion.

      Zionists reject Jesus Christ as their saviour and are waiting for a separate Messiah other than Jesus Christ. Yet, they are supported by the dispensationalists.

      The true Isrrael has always been the spiritual Israel which now includes both Jew and Gentile believers in Jesus Christ. This is the church and is the true seed of Abraham.

      Scofield, who was a convicted fraudster, was bankrolled by Zionist businessmen to introduce the concept of Zionism into the bible in order to gain support for Zionism within the Christian community.

      Scofield did this by WRONGLY dividing the word whereby he divided the people of God into two separated peoples, i.e., Israel and the Christian church.
      He portrayed Israel as separate people of God who will reign with Christ on earth for a thousand years.

      The dispensationalist doctrine.is contrary to the will of God as expressed in Galatians 3 where we are told that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile and that the seed of Abraham are actually those who belong to Jesus Christ.

      “28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

      29And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

      Dispensationalists have swayed the American foreign policy and have supported the campaign of war sanctions in the middle east which has resulted in a huge number of casualties including Iraq where “As many as 576,000 Iraqi children may have died since the end of the Persian Gulf war because of economic sanctions imposed by the Security Council, ” according to the New York Times.

      The frenzied dispensationalists laud this because they feel that these events will hasten their fictional secret rapture. Such is their deluded state of mind.

      It’s interesting that Scofield promoted both Zionism and the secret rapture delusion. Both of these doctrines are in opposition to the expressed will of God and have been used to misdirect the Christian church. and enable the Zionists to prepare the stage for their Messiah who is not Jesus Christ.

      It’s worth noting that the Zionism is at the heart of the new Israeli government.
      Benjamin Netanyahu has declared
      “At this time, the State of Israel needs a Zionist government,”

      So, you can see why I hate dispensationalism. It has seduced the Christian church and has helped create the apostate church which rejects the clear teaching of Christ and his apostles. Dispensationalists support and fund the Zionist state which I believe will embrace the man of sin as it’s Messiah resulting in the persecution of the true church which includes both Jewish and Gentile Christians.

      Christians are not afraid of the day of wrath because that is when we will be raptured. But we will go through the great tribulation which happens before the day of wrath. The Christians who are fearful are the Christians who have the facts. They include Rachel and me among many other bible believing Christians.

      I won’t address the other lies which you believe because I have addressed them already in previous comments. I posted this comment to refute your lies for the sake of Christians who are genuinely seeking the truth.

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      1. It’s sadly evident that most followers of Christ (including myself) lack enough understanding of the Jewish roots of our faith. I’m still learning and am constantly having “aha!” moments every time I read through the Old Testament as well as through books by Messianic Jewish authors. I guess the so-called “church fathers” like those at the Council at Elvira (306 AD), the Council of Nicea (325 AD), as well as St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Jerome, and St. John Chrysostom, to name a few, did a really good job at doing what they were trying to do. But that’s just the Catholic Church. Fast forward to the Protestant Reformation. Although Martin Luther started well, he finished poorly. So poorly that it was his later writings that Hitler used to try to justify everything he did. Last year I read an excellent book that defines the distinction between Israel and the Church. I can re-read it, come back later, and try to list some of the talking points. But I don’t have as much energy as I used to and can’t keep up with all you younger people! So I’m going to just throw out a clue and hope and pray some pre-tribber out there catches it who could do a much better job explaining what I’m only hinting at here. Which is: most people are so focused on the OLIVE tree, that it eclipses their view of the FIG tree.

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      2. @ ‘Pray’ November 5, 2022 at 9:44 pm

        Hello ‘Pray’
        Let me clarify that I am not an anti Semite. In fact, I’ve vigorously defended the Jewish community on this forum against antisemitic comments.

        I am anti-Zionist not anti-Semitic

        Martin Luther’s inexcusable hatred for the Jews is probably because of his Catholic background.

        The Catholic church sought to convert the Jews during the inquisition. True Christians were accused of being heretics. but the inquisition also extended to the Jewish community.
        “The Inquisition of the Catholic Church was a campaign of unimaginable cruelty and forced conversion during the Dark Ages”. Much of the terror was aimed at conversos, “crypto-Jews” who had converted to Roman Catholicism under the most extreme duress — including actual torture, and threat of torture and being burned at the stake — but were suspected of continuing to practice Judaism surreptitiously.”

        There was a lot of anti Semitism in Europe which the Nazis used to further marginalise and target the Jews. The Nazis released a statement accusing the Jews of being a threat to the ‘common good’

        The term ‘common good’ has been used against the unvaxxed in the covid scamdemic.

        Here’s an extract from the Nazi statement…
        “We demand the freedom of all religious confessions in the state, insofar as they do not jeopardize the state’s existence or conflict with the manners and moral sentiments of the Germanic race. The Party as such upholds the point of view of a positive Christianity without tying itself confessionally to any one confession. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit at home and abroad and is convinced that a permanent recovery of our people can only be achieved from within on the basis of the common good before individual good.”

        Many Christians both Protestant and Catholic bought into this resulting in an increased hatred and persecution of the Jewish community. This is what happens when so called Christians follow men and not the teaching of Christ and his apostles.

        But we also need to bear in mind that Hitler himself was a professed Roman Catholic
        .
        As I said earlier there is no distinction between the spiritual Israel and the church because the spiritual Israel IS the church which is born of Christ. This spiritual church includes the Old Testament and the New Testament saints.

        Dispensationalism plays on division. Its aim is to divide and conquer the church.

        It divides God’s work with his people into a list of false dispensations, thus breaking up the continuity of god’s redemptive work.

        It wrongly divides the sequence of events which precede the coming of Christ

        It divides the coming of Jesus Christ into two events by inventing an imaginary pretribulation rapture and then prioritising this imaginary event over the actual glorious return of Christ, thus dismissing the Glory of God.

        It over divides the word of God. And now its latest twist is the claim that only Paul’s letters are to the church, thus depriving dispensationalists of a proper understanding of God’s revelation in the gospels and the letters of the apostles.

        I cannot overstate the damage that dispensationalism is doing to the church both now and in the future.

        Liked by 2 people

      3. I’m sorry, Anthony, that you totally misunderstood what I was trying to say, and I would never accuse you or anyone else on this website of that! What I was trying to say is that these people I mentioned (“so-called church fathers”) have almost completely wiped out the heritage of our Jewish roots from our faith, so that’s why we don’t really “get it” about the difference between the fig tree, which represents the national identity of Israel (as a geopolitical nation-state), from the olive tree, which represents the spiritual covenant of God’s promise to Abraham of redemption, which all born-again Gentiles participate in. But because people don’t understand about Israel’s national identity, sometimes they get confused and think that the church has replaced Israel. I feel really sad for all of us, because we all love Jesus and just want to know as much about Him as possible. Not having that information available has led me to pour over the scriptures and seek out Messianic teachers. That’s all I was trying to say.

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      4. It’s too bad that you’re missing what God is doing here, Anthony. Although Israel is blessed with a military that are warriors and not woke, intelligence agencies who spy upon truly malignant entities and not upon their own people, they have been suffering under a “government of change” that has basically been selling them down the river. With Netanyahu now back in, He has given them a leader who not only loves his own country but who has the spine and resolve to do everything he can (and will) to protect and defend, nourish and grow Israel. And, like a U.S. president who we all know and love, there are forces within his own country who’ve been trying to take him down on false charges. Your misunderstanding of Israel’s place in God’s plan may perhaps be due to a doctrine that crept into the Church called “Replacement Theology,” or “Supercessionism” which basically says that the Church has replaced Israel. In other words, Israel has somehow been “morphed” into the Church. These are modern terms, but spirit behind it all goes back 2,000 years. There is a great article about Replacement Theology on JewishVoice.org if you or anyone else here cares to look it up. Also, please re-read Romans 11. You can sense Paul’s frustration that led him to say what he had to say. Here are just a couple verses (17-18) that refer to Gentiles being grafted into the olive tree of God’s Chosen People:

        “And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.”

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      5. Re: my post to you on “Replacement Theology” and “Supercessionism,” I had a typo in “These are modern terms, but spirit behind it all goes back 2,000 years.” I had meant to say “the spirit.”

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      6. @ ‘Pray’ November 6, 2022 at 4:53 pm

        Hello Pray
        Please note that in my last comment I was referring to the “spiritual Israel”

        I fully accept that God will turn his attention back to ethnic Israel. That will happen when the fulness of the gentiles comes in. Paul says that God has NOT cast away his people.

        Paul warned the gentiles that they would be cut off if they did not continue in god’s goodness. I believe that this will happen when the apostasy happens, and the man of sin is revealed. as mentioned by Paul in 2nd Thess 2.

        The apostate church will follow after the man of sin and will totally reject Christ and will therefore cease to remain in God’s goodness and will therefore be cut off thus allowing Israel to be grafted back in

        With regard to Benjamin Netanyahu
        :
        He promoted an aggressive campaign for the covid vaccine which is another clue that he is a shill just like Donald Trump who also rolled out the Covid vaccine. I think it is naive to believe that trump or Netanyahu love their country.
        I believe that they are both Shils for the globalists.

        Zionism is not of God. The true Zion is the heavenly Zion and not some man-made government. which doesn’t recognise Jesus Christ as God.

        We are at a time now when the devil is getting ready to take over the world. He has his people in place in both the political and spiritual institutions who are busy rolling out his agenda.

        I believe that we are approaching the tribulation which will lead on to the great tribulation which will be an age of huge demonic activity. Christians need to prepare for this because we will not be raptured until Christ returns after the great tribulation as stated in Mathew 24.

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      7. Anthony, Yes I agree that Trump was probably deceived about the vaccine, so it’s not surprising that maybe Netanyahu was also. Many fell into that trap, and it’s only now that we’re hearing the full horror story of all of the side effects. I’m also happy to hear that you realize that God will never forsake Israel. But, even after considering everything you have to say, I still don’t understand all your strong feelings about Netanyahu, Theodore Herschel, or the word “Zionist,” or “Zionism.” Through his past terms in office, Netanyahu has brilliantly guided Israel into becoming the strong, prosperous nation that she is now and has been a true warrior defending her from the existential threats posed by Iran and its terrorist proxies in Lebanon, Syria, and other places. He remains adamant in his refusal to bow to pressure from the U.S. government to do anything that he perceives is detrimental to his country in any way, unlike the previous “government of change.” Herschel is revered in Israel today as the founding father of their modern state. His Hebrew birthday (the 10th of Iyar) is observed in Israel as a National Holiday and His portrait hangs today in the plenum hall of the Israeli Knesset. The term “Zionism” is actually attributed to another Austrian Jewish writer, Nathan Birnbaum and the longing of the Jewish people to return to their homeland. “Zion” has been a biblical synonym for Jerusalem for millennia.

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      8. Anthony William:
        November 5, 2022 at 11:52 pm

        The Dragon’s antichrist spirit speaks it’s demon-cratic will through the corporate voice of Democracy’s deluded people: And the LORD said to Samuel, “Heed the (democratic) voice of the people in all that they say to you and make them a king; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not [Theocratically] reign over them. According to all the [democratic] works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt, even to this day–with which they have forsaken Me and served other gods–so they are doing to you also.” (1 Samuel 8:7-9, 19-20) Now it was the Preparation Day of the Passover, and about the sixth hour. And Pilate said to the Zionist Jews, “Behold your King!” But the (corporate democratic) voice of the Jews cried out, “Away with Him, away with Him! Crucify Him!” Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no King but Caesar!” (John 19:14-15)

        RE: November 6, 2022 at 4:53 pm—Pray says: With Netanyahu now back in, He has given them a carnal-minded leader who not only loves his own democratic country but who has the Socialist spine and resolve of Democracy’s antichrist spirit to do everything he humanistically can (and will) to protect and defend, nourish and grow Israel’s Zionist utopia. And, like the hedonistic U.S. president Trump [spiritually led by his seductive Pastor Paula White] who we all [i.e. noxious Judaeo-Xian tares] know and love, there are Socialist forces within his own democratic country who’ve been trying to take him down on false charges.

        Liked by 1 person

      9. John Shaphat: “noxious weeds,” “noxious Judaeo-Xian tares”

        For anyone who is here for the first time and uncertain about posting, please be assured that we have someone with the ability to discern what you’re REALLY saying, and who will promptly and creatively re-post what it was you should have known that you were actually posting.

        For instance, this is my original post:
        “With Netanyahu now back in, He has given them a leader who not only loves his own country but who has the spine and resolve to do everything he can (and will) to protect and defend, nourish and grow Israel. And, like a U.S. president who we all know and love, there are forces within his own country who’ve been trying to take him down on false charges.”

        This is John Shaphat’s re-post of my post:
        “With Netanyahu now back in, He has given them a carnal-minded leader who not only loves his own democratic country but who has the Socialist spine and resolve of Democracy’s antichrist spirit to do everything he humanistically can (and will) to protect and defend, nourish and grow Israel’s Zionist utopia. And, like the hedonistic U.S. president Trump [spiritually led by his seductive Pastor Paula White] who we all [i.e. noxious Judaeo-Xian tares] know and love, there are Socialist forces within his own democratic country who’ve been trying to take him down on false charges.”

        I know. It’s amazing isn’t it? Breathtaking, really

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      10. Praysays:
        November 5, 2022 at 9:44 pm

        Dear Pray, thank you for asking for my two cents. Did Jan Markel’s Olive Tree Views bring you here, too?

        We know that Jewish Believers and Gentile Believers are One in Christ and that no barrier exists between us in the eyes of God: Ephesians 2:11-22, Galatians 3:28, Colossians Romans 10:12. We are that New Creation spoken of in Colossians 3:10-11, Galatians 6:15, and 2 Corinthians 5:16-19, reconciled to God for our faith in Christ. We are the Body of Christ/the Church.

        But Israel and a whole and the Church as a whole are distinct. You make the contrast with your example of the Olive Tree and Fig Tree. That is not something I have studied thoroughly, but simply have read that the fig tree was cursed by Christ for not producing fruit. I have heard those who equal that literal event with Israel not “producing fruit” (due to disbelief) in the current dispensation—but after their rescue and reconciliation to the Lord at the end of the Tribulation, Israel will indeed produce fruit in the Millennial Kingdom.
        I have also learned about the Fig Tree Prophecy/Parable of the Fig Tree from Matthew 24 and clearly see that since Israel has become a nation (and is miraculously able to retain their culture and language and religion and some land after being so many years in dispersion—what a sign!) that “summer is at the door.”

        I believe the time the fig tree spent withered is a direct connection to the stop/gap in Daniel’s chapter 9 timeclock…
        (… 69 Weeks God dealt directly with the Nation through signs and wonders and miracles,
        followed by the STOP in the timeclock in which Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection ended that miraculous “program” for the Jews and the Gentiles were then grafted-in for 2000 years,
        which will resume with the 70th Week of God’s timeclock and begins the Tribulation/Time of Jacob’s Trouble, in which He continues just as He left off in His direct and grand supernatural dealings with Israel).

        We know that the fig tree was withered or “stopped” for almost 2000 years, but we can see it tender and bearing leaves right now. Will it soon “start” and be able to produce fruit—are we almost in the Millennium? That’s why so many believers like me read the articles on this site, because we know it’s almost that time, and that some horrific 7 years precede it. We are watching for the Lord’s soon return!

        Pray, I do see how we are “grafted in” to the original Jewish olive tree, since the offer of salvation came to the Jews first. I think of the Old Testament parallels of Jacob’s desire to marry Rachel, but he must work 7 more years for her, and is married to Leah first. Jacob can be seen as a type of Christ, Rachel as Israel, and Leah to the Gentile Church, while the 7 years is the Tribulation. Leah produces (children) first since they married first, and Rachel produces children after the last 7 years after Jacob marries her.

        I also think about Ruth, Naomi, and her Kinsman Redeemer who so generously paid the price in full for her—Ruth, a Gentile, can be seen as a type for the Gentile believer, Naomi can be seen as a type for the Jewish believer, both of whom had no hope and were destitute. Ruth is allowed to humbly pick the gleanings (or partake in the salvation that was first offered to the Jews), by Boaz, who marries her after she humbles herself at his feet. Boaz as Ruth’s Kinsman-Redeemer is an Old Testament glimpse of our Christ, the only One by His BLOOD able and willing to pay the full price of our sins—past, present, and future.

        Ruth’s declaration of faith to Naomi in 1:16 beautifully illustrates to you and me our parts in the Body of Christ as the Gentile and Jewish believers: “And Ruth said, Intreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God.”

        Just my thoughts on your posts. They are consistent with what you and Rela were explaining about marriage/the Bride/the Marriage Supper/glorified bodies at the very beginning. No mental gymnastics required to see this point of view, and most importantly, no contradictions, while pointing to the Gospel of Grace.
        Thank you for your prayers, Pray! I am slowly getting better.

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      11. JesusisComing: You’re still there!!!! I’m so happy because I thought you’d left here for good! I tried finding you at the other website you mentioned under the name you gave me, but I got a little overwhelmed because it’s a large website and soooo many articles. It might help if you gave me an idea of which topics you’re interested in the most and would be most apt to post on. I just saw your message to me, and I’m kind of tired tonight, so I can’t respond to everything you said here, but would like to tomorrow. When I mentioned the fig tree in my post as representing the nation state of Israel, I was specifically thinking of Matthew 24 – that this tree of Israel blossoming again would be the first of the birth pangs. But because Israel was still a nation when He gave that prophecy, His disciples may not have totally understood that He was actually providing a clue, and thought He was just using an analogy. So I really think He was directing that to us, the generation that would see May 14, 1948 happen. One thing you said though, that really struck me – about Jesus cursing the fig tree and a possible explanation for that. I’ve always been puzzled – why did He do that? Was it to show the disciples that if they had enough faith, they could move mountains? Was it because maybe they were feeling tired or discouraged and they needed to be reassured again that He was who He said He was? Who knows. But, I’ve never heard before what you said you’ve heard, “that those who equal that literal event with Israel not “producing fruit” (due to disbelief) in the current dispensation—but after their rescue and reconciliation to the Lord at the end of the Tribulation, Israel will indeed produce fruit in the Millennial Kingdom.” as well as your conclusion in regard to that: “I believe the time the fig tree spent withered is a direct connection to the stop/gap in Daniel’s chapter 9 timeclock…” Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying, but somehow it sounds kind of punitive to me that Israel is a “withered fig tree” and it doesn’t at all seem in sync with the character of the Lord, who promised His people that He would bless those who blessed them and curse those cursed them. I don’t see Israel as a withered at all during the stop/gap. Right now, I see her as a tree that just isn’t producing fruit – that’s all. But she certainly will again after “they look upon Him whom they pierced and mourn for Him as for an only son.” That’s when they’ll say, “Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord.” I don’t know if you’ve seen all the back and forth discussion today and tonight about Replacement Theology, Theodore Herschel, and Zion, but if you have a minute, maybe you could take a look, and add something if you’re inclined. I really feel it’s so important that people understand clearly that Israel and the Church are two distinct servants of the Lord and that in no way could the Church ever replace Israel. Maybe Leo won’t mind if we stay in contact here on this page? He’s added more topics to his website, so people are more interested in commenting there, and may not mind if we continue here. So happy to hear that you’re feeling better and look forwarding to sharing more with you tomorrow about some more of what you’ve said! It sounds like you’re a really busy person, so I’ll understand if I don’t hear from you for awhile, but I’ll just use your post to me tonight to keep responding and you can check it out when you have time.

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      12. JesusisComing: Last night when I was responding to your post, and talking about the idea of Israel being a “withered” fig tree as sounding a little punitive, I hope you don’t think I was accusing you of being judgemental. That’s not at all what I meant. Also, you asked me if I came here from Jan Markell’s website. Maybe yes, maybe no. I’ve already revealed too much about myself here, that I’m woman, that I’m almost 70. So I would prefer not to include any hints about who’s influenced me, whether it’s websites or books. I’ll always be vague. I only mentioned JewishVoice.org because I found a really good article there on Replacement Theology when I was doing a search on that subject. It feels really good to be anonymous – gives me a certain sense of freedom. Besides, sometimes when people know a little about you, because everyone has their own preconceptions and opinions (and defense systems), sometimes those can block what someone’s trying to say. That’s why some Christian authors like to branch out into fiction. The arts have a way of speaking directly to your heart, like a beautiful painting, piece of music, a story, a poem. They’re so powerful, they can get past all those things that would block their message. So if it’s ok with you, could you not reveal any more specifics about yourself from now on, whenever you post to me? Hope that’s ok? One last thing, when you have the time, if you could look at something I just posted here about my three reasons for believing the Millennium will take place on earth, and maybe if you have the time to add anything about that to people here.

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      14. @ ‘Pray’ November 7, 2022 at 12:56 am

        Hello Pray I’m not condemning Herzl. I was simply pointing out to Andy that he was wrong when he claimed that dispensationalists were the only ones to accurately foresee Isrrael as an independent state.

        When I refer to Zion I’m doing so in the context of the new covenant. The true Zion is the heavenly Zion from which Christ will reign forever.

        In Hebrews we are told

        “22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
        23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
        24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”

        This is the Zion that Christians should be focussed on. But instead, Christian Zionists are focussed on a Zion whose believers are planning for a different Messiah. They are not preparing for Jesus Christ. They want to rebuild the temple and resume animal sacrifice.
        Those who support this movement are supporting the rejection of Jesus Christ and the efficacy of his eternal sacrifice. This is a blasphemous act on the part of those Christians who support this. It is an insult that shows contempt, disrespect and a lack of reverence for the eternal sacrifice of Christ on the cross.
        The Jews can be forgiven because they are still in blindness, but Christians should know better.
        I believe that dispensationalism and Zionism are paving the way for the revealing of the man of sin who will sit in the holy place showing himself that he is God.

        With regard to Trump surely you are aware that Trump has continued to promote the covid vaccine so you can’t excuse him on the basis that he was deceived. He is puppet for the globalists. in my opinion
        .
        You also excuse Netanyahu despite the fact that he was indicted, and his wife was also convicted for the misappropriation of government funds.
        I would be the first to say that Netanyahu is a strong leader, but I believe that he is a puppet.

        I believe that Israel is being set up to play host to the man of sin where he will sit in the holy place showing himself that he is God. This will be made possible by the Zionists both Christian and Jewish who believe the Christ will dwell and reign on this earth in Israel.

        I believe that Israel is being set up to play host to the man of sin where he will sit in the holy place. This will be made possible by the Zionists both Christian and Jewish who believe the Christ will reign on this earth in Israel.

        I believe that Christ will not set foot again on this earth. I believe that he will dwell in the New Jerusalem and will reign from there. God will make a new heaven and a new earth. The new Jerusalem will descend from heaven to the new earth, and we are told that God will dwell on the new earth with his people.

        “1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

        2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

        3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.”

        The next big event before Christ’s return is the revealing of the man of sin who will come. “Even him, who’s coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,”
        The apostate church will be fooled by him since they believe that the rapture must happen before this event despite Paul saying the opposite.

        We are not told how long he will reign. I believe that the reign of the man od sin will happen during ‘ the new age’ which many occultists and new age Christians are hoping for.

        In Revelation 20, there is the mention of the tribulation saints reigning with Christ for a thousand years, but Revelation does NOT say that that this will happen on this earth.

        Read it for yourself

        4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

        There is no mention or indication of this happening on this earth.

        We must stick to what the bible actually says and not rely on mere conjecture of others.

        Like

      15. Anthony 11-6-22 Before we go any further, can we agree that since we both strongly believe what we believe about Netanyahu, Herzl, and the terms “Zion,” “Zionism,” or “Zionist,” is it ok if we pause pursuing any more conversation there? Instead, I’d would just like to focus on what you said:

        “I believe that Christ will not set foot again on this earth. I believe that he will dwell in the New Jerusalem and will reign from there. God will make a new heaven and a new earth. The new Jerusalem will descend from heaven to the new earth, and we are told that God will dwell on the new earth with his people.”

        In believing this, you’re robbing yourself of the joy of knowing that the Lord and His bride have two “homecomings” to look forward to, not just one. I’ll explain that in another post. Right now, I just want to say that I believe there are three reasons why Jesus will reign in Jerusalem, Israel during the Millennium:

        1) The character of God.
        2) Object lesson (to the whole human race).
        3) It all began in Israel.

        But for now, I need to break up my response to you into three parts, because I can’t say it all in just one post. It may take a couple days.

        So, here’s Part 1 about His character being one reason for Him choosing to be on earth instead of in Heaven during the Millennium. The most obvious characteristic of God is His love, so that’s what I’ll focus on here. He has, since the beginning, always wanted to be in the midst of us, so much so that no one can keep Him away from us.

        After He created Adam and Eve, He could have conversed with them from Heaven alone, even though they were on the earth. But, like a loving Father, he enjoyed taking nature walks with His children in the garden and wanted them to also find joy in that. Then, suddenly all this fellowship was cut off after they sinned. Since He’d already known this would happen, He’d had a plan for how to resolve it and promised them a Redeemer.

        When He was guiding the ancestors of the Redeemer through the desert after freeing them from slavery in Egypt, He chose to be with them, to go before them as a pillar of fire in the day and a pillar of cloud at night. He also had them put together a tent as a physical tabernacle where He could dwell among them. He was happy enough with a tent, but then came King David, a man after His own heart, who loved Him so much that He really wanted to build a temple for Him. And although God loved him even more, He chose to have David’s son, Solomon build the temple.

        Then, finally, in His most intimate involvement with mankind, He sent His Son to live here among us as God in the flesh. This allowed Him to not only pay the penalty for our sin, on the cross, but to actually start dwelling inside anyone who sincerely accepts that sacrifice for their sins. So, for the past 2,000 years God continues to live within those who are born again, not of the flesh but of the spirit.

        But for the coming Millennial Kingdom, where will He rule from for those 1,000 years: heaven or earth?

        He could rule from Heaven, but I believe, based not only upon the scriptures about that period (which I gave you in one of my first posts) but also, based upon the consistency of the character of God’s love (He never changes) that He would choose to live again, physically in the midst of mankind, in the nitty-gritty of planet earth, specifically Jerusalem, Israel.

        There is some disagreement between us about Jerusalem and the New Jerusalem. I believe that after Jesus has finished ruling in geopolitical Jerusalem, in Israel, it’s at the end of those 1000 years, when God creates the new heavens and new earth, that the “New Jerusalem” (which remains in Heaven during the Millennium), will descend upon the new earth and that’s where we will all be for all eternity.

        This is the end of reason 1 – God’s character. I’ll pick up reason 2 – Object lesson for mankind in my next post. That will be an extremely short post, because it’s so obvious it won’t take many words to state it.

        Like

      16. @ ‘Pray’ November 7, 2022 at 8:55 pm

        You are approaching the scriptures with a preconceived notion, and you will do anything you can to make it fit with the scriptures.
        In your zeal for the dispensationalist lie you are over dividing the scriptures.

        You say
        “In believing this, you’re robbing yourself of the joy of knowing that the Lord and His bride have two “homecomings” to look forward to, not just one.
        I say
        This is just emotional nonsense. It is in fact you who are being deprived. Because you are depriving yourself of the truth.”

        I say
        Paul has clearly refuted the notion of a pretribulation rapture. But that’s not good enough for you. In a previous post you knowingly misrepresented 2nd Thessalonians by quoting from the inaccurate NKJ bible because it twists the truth to suit your false narrative.

        You are over dividing the scriptures in an effort to make your dispensationalist notions fit.
        You say that Christ must return twice, and you say that he must dwell on this earth twice.
        You divide the Christian saints into two groups, the haves and the have nots in order to facilitate a fake pretribulation rapture.

        There are no scriptures whatsoever which state that Christ will dwell on this earth for one thousand years.

        Revelation tells us clearly when God will dwell with men. It will be after the millennium and will be when there is a new heaven and a new earth.

        “1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
        2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
        3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.”

        This is clear.

        Your dispensationalist views are based on pure conjecture and misinterpretation of the scriptures. You believe in Scofield and other fake commentaries, but you do not believe in the word of God.

        You are not interested in the truth. Even when it comes to Trump who is an obvious Shil, you make excuses for him and when I tell you the truth about him, you drop the subject rather than acknowledging the truth.
        So, there is no point in taking this conversation any further. If the truth is not your goal, then you will never find it.

        Like

  7. Dennis Meadows hopes he can eliminate billions without them becoming too violent because his own person might be endangered. Instead of a “dumb dictatorship”–with under 2,000,000,000–they can have an intelligent one run by ingenious technocrats like himself. The closest thing to God that exists in that imaginary world Meadows and his pals dreamed up.

    Liked by 2 people

    1. The thing about Utopianism (such as the globalists like Meadows proposed) is that it inspires nihilism. Since the French Revolution, supposedly to free men from their feudal shackles, Utopianism has used a Reign of Terror (beginning with Robespierre) to bring about their Utopia. Today’s globalists are hatching the same thing, first destroying our Christian culture, our family, and all values that make a reasonable cohesive society. And finally eliminating whole populations through pestilence, famine and war. That’s the ambition of Satan. We must remember why Satan and a third of the angels fell—it was not simply jealousy towards God but jealousy towards humanity, God’s most valued creation. We were made a little lower than the angels, yet we will judge them (1 Cor. 6:3). We were created in God’s image and God himself took on our flesh to raise our whole self to the heavens, to be like Him in Christ, for we shall see him as he is (1 John 3:2). We will mirror him, as it were (II Cor.3:18). Our transformation is occurring even now, as we follow Christ in our earthly life through all its troubles.

      The utopians would like us to forget, even revile, this narrative and destroy ourselves for their benefit and for Satan’s pleasure. To counter them, we must remember who we are in God and what our destiny is and act accordingly. With faith and hope. And convey this intelligently and with devotion to our younger generations who need to hear this badly so that they can resist the devil in whatever guise he appears. Right now, most of them are like sheep being herded with perfect cooperation to slaughter. We have to really step up and steer the narrative.

      Liked by 3 people

      2. Kayjae says:
        October 31, 2022 at 5:10 pm

        Right now, the Devil’s Socialistically secured goats (i.e. deluded children of darkness) are like digitally marked chattel being herded with perfect ‘Xian’ cooperation to slaughter. We Socialistically secured ‘foolish virgins’ have to really step up, and with our empty oil lamps steer the Beast’s Social Justice Gospel narrative. The Lord Jesus has called and is faithfully leading His repentant flock of sheep out of the abominable Social Security System of the Beast’s accursed (501c3) harlot church/state that is awaiting eternal destruction.

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    3. Thanks Rachel! Right now it’s a toss up between Fear and Anger hen I think about critters such as Meadows! However, and maybe I aint supposed to begin a sentence with ‘However, but … If we right now continue to walk with Christ and in The Word then we have God’s Promise of something Much Much better just up ahead, past this dying world! God has promised that The MEEK Shall Inherit the earth! (That means that we who belong to Him aint going anywhere). This earth does NOT belong to the Wicked ones as they try and pass thru ‘evil gates onto the meadows’. of their ‘shwabed delusions. .. The evil IS NOW Being EXPOSED! Their bragging and arrogance and self-confidence will convict them in the end and the gallows they’ve built for us, will be hanging them in the End! Who can stand against us if Christ is Here With and for us!

      Liked by 1 person

    4. Has anyone ever watched this dystopian short film?

      A man lives in a society where citizens police each other with their mobile phones. | Utopia

      Liked by 2 people

      1. Yes, Anthony, I watched it. I have been living free from Socialism’s dystopian Security System for three decades by God’s AMAZING Grace!

        Liked by 1 person

      2. john shaphat October 31, 2022 at 8:00 pm

        Helo John It’s good that you have independence.

        A new hi tec alarm system has been installed in the apartments where I live, even though the old system was adequate.

        The new system has a sensor in every room except the toilet, which reminds me of the video.

        I wonder are there listening devices in the sensors. It doesn’t bother me but I’m curious.

        I wonder will they be installing cameras next, in the guise of improvements?

        Like

      5. Anthony William says:
        October 31, 2022 at 8:38 pm

        Big Brother’s demon-cratic spirit is deceitfully ubiquitous. In Smart TV, MacBook Pro, iPhone, and in my hostile ‘Xian’ family members who love the welfare/security Socialism daily provides their idolatrous, digitally marked souls.

        Like

      6. Rachel Nichols October 31, 2022 at 8:48 pm

        You’d wonder what they’re up to.

        Check out the video. The people in it are very down to earth which makes it very plausible.

        Liked by 1 person

    5. I want to share this – from News Target and there’s others-
      “Klaus Schwab’s right-hand man calls for “mass extinction event” to usher in Great Reset
      Another leaked video has emerged to show that the World Economic Forum (WEF), led by the infamous globalist kingpin Klaus Schwab, is planning to unleash mass genocide as the catalyst for its promised “Great Reset.” Yuval Noah Harari, who is described as Schwab’s “right-hand man….” You can look it up

      Liked by 1 person

  8. Pray says:
    October 30, 2022 at 2:10 am

    God bless you Pray! Thank you for your kind words and encouragement. I hope those verses are as amazing and life-changing for you as they were for me.

    Like

    1. Thanks so much for reaching out to me – I really needed to hear your words! I’ve been sitting here tonight feeling stunned over the onslaught of attacks against all of us who believe in a pre-Tribulation rapture. This is just the second Christian website that I’ve commented on, so I’m new to it all. But I’ll get over it. More than I feel sorry for myself, I keep wondering, and feel bad thinking about the possibility that there could have been somebody out there who doesn’t know the Lord, and who maybe came to this website, saw all this happening, and then left – with no hope.

      Like

      1. In case you didn’t notice, this blog deals with current political issues and world events of special interest to every Christian across the board, regardless of their theological views.

        But somehow the comment section gets regularly disrupted by every manner of interminable pre-trib, post-trib, whatever trib and Rapturite opinions that swerve the conversation completely off topic. It happens every single time. It never fails that someone starts the Donnybrook by evangelizing the Rapture view. Of course that sets off the rebuttals. And back and forth it goes. In the end, no one is convinced. There are always opposing theological views. It’s likely you already knew that there were opposing views to your pre-trib Rapture view. So why be “stunned”?

        I find these pile-on pre-post trib and Rapture debates exasperating and boring. These are very tedious to sort through and do NOT add any information to the articles posted on this blog.

        Liked by 1 person

      2. Kayjae: I guess you were so exasperated that you missed that I was stunned “over the onslaught of attacks” – in other words, the vitriol. Of course I recognize that there are opposing beliefs – that shouldn’t surprise anyone. But now I realize I was naive in automatically assuming that because this is a Christian website, that there would be fairness and respect during the presentation of these views. It was a real kick in the gut when I saw how one group was viciously maligning the other. Is that what we’re all about – let’s see how bad we can stick it to each other? No wonder unbelievers often say, “No thank you” to Christianity. I’m coming to believe that the devil doesn’t have to do much dividing. We do it perfectly well all by ourselves.

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      3. The vitriol was because the same people have been attacking each other’s views over the issue for a long time. Patience on either side is running thin. You can find much worse on other Christian sites.

        And this is only a small example of the serious and intractable divisions in Christianity, particularly in Protestantism (which, BTW, is the only sector of Christianity that argues endlessly over pre-post Trib, the Rapture and millennial views).

        Liked by 1 person

      4. Pray
        October 31, 2022 at 5:38 am

        Most of the vitriol and misbehaviour has come from pretribbers, including yourself.

        So, stop playing the victim

        If your concerned about others visiting this site, then check your own behaviour and stop ganging up against other contributors.

        I personally would prefer to stick to Leo’s original topic. But people like you come on the forum and change the narrative in order to push the pretrib/dispensationalist narrative. This causes me and others to respond as Kayjae has rightly pointed out.

        Liked by 2 people

      6. I was shocked too, Pray! I am new to this as well. I didn’t figure that it would happen on a website that champions freedom of speech and freedom of thought. But post about a Pre-Trib Rapture–after Leo himself asks for proof– and out come the HOUNDING Anthony and that glitching bot shaphat to bully and oppress and dominate EACH AND EVERY comment with their superiority and knowledge. They brought out my salty side. And you are absolutely right– their wannabe-highly-intellectual style repels people from Christianity rather than “win” people to Christ. The Gospel of Christ is SIMPLE and INCLUSIVE!
        There are other current events websites where the commentors show more Grace, love, joy, humility, and encouragement for the approaching Day and where there are REAL teachers full of the Holy Spirit to learn and gain from. Now The End Begins is one. I’m done too.

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      7. JesusisComing: I know I said I was signing off Leo’s website already, but I’m hoping this message will still get to you. Please don’t stop sharing with others. People need to hear what you have to say. I can tell that you’re either a pastor or teacher or someone who has studied the Bible for a long time. Tonight I re-read all your posts, and understand much more than I did before that. Maybe there are other websites where you would feel more comfortable bringing your message – it is one of hope and grace and truth and love. So now I’m finally signing off for good and hope that somehow this makes its way to you. God bless you, my dear brother or sister!

        Like

      8. Praysays:
        November 1, 2022 at 8:51 am

        God bless you, Pray! Those are such kind and uplifting words.
        I am an everyday person who loves God’s Word and reads it every day. Dispensationalism changed my life and millions of others because and helped us understand the Bible as a whole by seeing it in parts. The entire Bible is FOR us, but only the writings of Paul are TO us. It was like a light bulb went off– I clearly remember the day and feeling in awe.
        When attackers came to us on this site with their so-called “Bible scrutiny” I could see that the point they were trying to make was that Israel and the Church are one, but I believe they are DISTINCT.
        Big difference!
        Israel is Israel and the Church is the Church that began with the Jews at Pentecost and the Gentiles AFTER the conversion of Saul. We Christians, first called Christians at Antioch, have been called to salvation, grafted in, because of the Jews. Salvation came to the Jews first. They as whole rejected it, so salvation was opened up to Gentiles.
        But Israel and the Church are still distinct.
        Israel still has not been reconciled to God! That will happen at the end of the Jacob’s Trouble.
        The Church has already been reconciled to God and is seated in heavenly places. We are the Body of Christ! See the distinction!
        It is because we see the distinction, we can also see the Pre-Tribulation Rapture and the end of legalism.

        So those attackers who believe they will partake in the judgments of Israel and a Christ-rejecting world, according to their faith let it be done to them as in Matthew 8:13, Matthew 9:29, and Matthew 15:28.
        But as for you and me and so many millions who have been washed in the BLOOD of JESUS CHRIST by simply BELIEVING, the condemnation is FINISHED and all debts have been paid, and NOTHING can ever separate us from HIS LOVE.
        Again, God bless you Pray!! I hope to meet you in the clouds very soon! Your words for me were fitly spoken and brought this message of Hope full circle. I hope anyone reading this will be strengthened and encouraged in their faith in the Lord.

        Romans 1:16-17
        For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ; for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from to faith; as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

        Like

      9. Thank you JesusIsComing for expounding on your beliefs. I truly do respect your opinion and, as you may have noticed, I have not deleted or censored any comments in this debate. I have let both sides have their say, even at the risk of running off some of my readers who find this debate boring and laborious. It truly does at a certain point become a circular debate (in case you haven’t noticed haha). I only have one question for you, actually two questions that are related, and then I will let it rest. In my estimation you confuse life here in the world with eternal life in heaven with our Lord when you say we mid-trib and post-tribbers will “partake of the judgments of Israel.” Number one, how can you call persecution “judgment” when it’s been ongoing and relentless since the dawn of Christianity? Our brothers and sisters were fed to lions, crucified, burned at the stake, beheaded, etc. And please do not tell me that the Great Tribulation will be worse, because what could possibly be worse than those torturous deaths? When Jesus said in Matt 24 the persecution would be worse than ever I believe what he meant was that it would be more widespread, not just in a few regions of the world, and we can see that coming to pass now as Christians even in the West are now becoming otherized and singled out for a coming persecution. And number two, if you were faced with having to sacrifice your earthly life today, being put to the test by a godless Christ-hater, how would you explain that to your fellow pre-tribbers in light of your comments above? I am sure you would make the right choice and not deny our Lord to save your skin, but still, how would that play in light of all you said above? I’m totally confused by your words because I don’t see persecution, no matter how intense it becomes, as a sign of judgment from God. I see it as a fulfillment of Christ’s words when he said in Matthew 24 to expect to be persecuted, especially in the last days, but it has really never stopped since the beginning. We’ve seen ebbs and flows over the centuries but never a total stoppage of the persecution of believers by the world. What happens when it becomes more intense than ever and you are still here? I am not trying to be facetious. I am honestly confused and seeking answers. If your “hope” lies in the pre-trib rapture and not the Second Coming, what happens when you are thrown into the lion’s den? What happens when some of your fellow church members or even a family member turns you in to the Gestapo for having wrongthink? These are things you need to think about dear brother (or sister) because I believe this country is galloping headlong into the whirlwind and many of us will be called to die for Christ. Instead of looking at it as a judgment, I look at it as a privilege. Thoughts? Hey, at least we are all thinking about these things instead of following the latest twist in the Paul Pelosi saga. Haha. Take care and God bless you.

        Liked by 1 person

      11. The only way the Great Tribulation seems worse than other tribulations is in the extent of its geography. Economic sanctions, systemic starvation, political imprisonment, torture and executions are nothing new. The Apostle John’s audience had gone through them.
        My a-millennial preacher would probably say “Great Tribulation” is a metaphor for the deaths of all Christian martyrs who died since the time of Christ.
        Worldwide or global would certainly make it big or great.
        The Global Persecution.
        Having your head cut off is far less painful than being turned into a torch I understand.

        Liked by 1 person

      12. I don’t understand what persecution has to do with pre-Tribulationism. I believe in pre-Trib and also believe that persecution and martyrs have existed throughout Church history. I think most pre-Tribbers would agree with that–it’s an obvious fact. God’s judgment does not start until the opening of the seals by Jesus when the Tribulation begins. Persecution will get worse BEFORE the Tribulation begins.

        Like

      13. Tribulation: Distress or suffering resulting from oppression or persecution.
        Definition found in the Merrium Webster Dictionary. Compatible with the Biblical usage of the word.
        In John 16:33 Jesus tells His followers to expect “tribulation” in this world. Just a synonym for persecution.

        Liked by 1 person

      14. I know what persecution and what tribulation are and I am able to understand dictionary entries. I just meant I don’t see that persecution not being judgment is an argument against pre-Tribulationism. Jesus said we would have tribulation in the this world. We also have persecution at the same time. You can lump them together or not–that doesn’t matter. But that doesn’t make either of them judgments of God.

        Like

      15. Thank you for all you spelled out for us. I am so thankful that God revealed to me the importance of dispensational truth from the very outset of my spiritual journey. This has kept me from many of the denominational errors and heretical teachings that are so widespread these days. God bless you.

        Like

      16. JesusisComing: You’re still there! I was sitting here crying because I didn’t know if you’d get my last message. I have some last words to share with you and everyone who’s reading. Please bear with me because I’m pushing 70 and it’s taking me longer to “get things out” these days. First all of all, I want to say to anyone who has come to this website seeking answers and seen the ugliness of people tearing into one another, please don’t run away! All of us here are broken people and we desperately need Jesus as much as anyone who doesn’t know Him. Some of us may try to hide it, but to borrow a phrase used by my friend in one of their posts, “it’s glaringly obvious.” Just to show you how much I need healing myself, I don’t mind sharing one of my own wounds. There was a point in my life, when I was 28 years old, when I was feeling despair and anger and confusion. My mother, who I loved very much, had just died from a long and painful battle with cancer. One night, I put a package of sleeping pills and a bottle of water into my backpack, got on my bicycle, turned on the light and started heading through the city toward the mountains. On my way, I noticed a church with the lights on. Without intending to, I found myself walking in, sat in the back and started listening to the pastor’s message. After a little while, he stopped, and told us he believed the Lord had just spoken to him about someone there. Then he said, “I want to know who’s here tonight who’s thinking of suicide.” Somehow, my legs managed to propel me to the front. People started coming up out of their seats and began to hug me. In all the warmth of their embrace and the kindness of their words, I didn’t realize that Jesus had been holding me in His arms all along and wanted me to feel His love. But I had shut Him and everyone and everything else out. I even didn’t stop to think about the anguish that my father would feel over the loss of a child so soon after the loss of a woman he had loved all his life. All I could feel was the pain and I wanted to end it. So because of Him, I’m alive today and able to tell you my story. He had a plan for my life and He has a plan for yours. I’m praying you’ll open your heart just a little to Him, because I know with every ounce of my being that you’ll never regret it. I also want to say to my brother John Shaphat that I’m sorry about the harsh rebuke. When I get attacked, it makes me angry and defensive. I’m only human. But that’s no excuse – you can see how much work the Lord still has to do within me. The other day I was feeling angry, scared and discouraged over all the evil and violence and hatred that is growing around us in the world. And then I heard his still, small voice speaking to my heart, “Be still, and know that I am God.” So my prayer for you and me and all my other brothers and sisters in the Lord here is that we could all just sit still for awhile, and feel His love washing over us and flooding within us. Maybe even open our hearts to Him and let Him reach down inside and touch our wounds with His hands that still and will forever bear the scars of His wounds from the nails. My last words I’ve saved for you, JesusisComing. You have a love for the Lord that is so obvious and a message that is so worth hearing, that I would urge to keep sharing as long as you are able. And after the Rapture, when Jesus has introduced us? You’d better get ready for a HUGE hug! Love you all, God bless, and now I’m finally “outta here!”

        Liked by 1 person

      17. JesusIsComing November 1, 2022 at 2:39 pm

        YOU SAY
        “Israel is Israel and the Church is the Church that began with the Jews at Pentecost and the Gentiles AFTER the conversion of Saul.”

        I SAY
        Are you calling saint Stephen a liar? Because Stephen clearly shows the church was in the wilderness with Moses
        Acts 7:38
        38This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

        The word ‘church’ simply means an ‘assembly of people’ . In the Old Testament it referred to the nation whom God had chosen and separated from the nations around them to be his people. In this nation many of the great saints of old are revealed.
        This is the nation who were given the oracles of God and to whom the Christ would be revealed in the flesh.

        But faith in Christ is not restricted to New Testament saints.

        Moses believed in Christ as stated in Hebrews 11
        Hebrews 11.
        26Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

        The Old Testament church were sustained by Christ.

        1 Corinthians 10:4

        “4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
        5But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.”

        The truth is that the word ‘church’ is a general term which includes all the saints of God and is not restricted to a 2000 year period.
        It does not exclude the tribulation saints.

        The dispensationalists have divided the church to suit their own false doctrine which is a false gospel.

        In Israel there were many who didn’t have TRUE faith just as it is in the church today. But the weeds will be separated from the church when Christ returns after the tribulation and the TRUE believers will be taken up to be with Christ.

        In the physical church there is the spiritual church. It has always been that way both in the Old Testament and the New Testament. It is the spiritual church who are saved and not the physical church.

        YOU SAY
        “But as for you and me and so many millions who have been washed in the BLOOD of JESUS CHRIST by simply BELIEVING, ”

        I SAY
        I am saved not by faith but by God who gave me faith. An academic faith will not save you. The faith that God gives is a living faith resulting in obedience to the will of God.

        James makes the point that TRUE faith is evidenced by works.

        “17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

        18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

        19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

        20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?”

        But you reject James letter as being TO us because you say “but only the writings of Paul are TO us.”

        Once again you are OVER dividing the scriptures. You are deluded and have lost all sense of what the bible is saying.
        Dispensationalism shreds the truth of God and denies God’s truth.

        Dispensationalists mention Jacob’s trouble as being the ‘great tribulation’, but the bible says no such thing.

        Jacob’s trouble is mentioned once in the bible by the prophet Jeremiah.
        You fail to mention that Jerusalem fell in Jeremiah’s time just as the prophet Jeremiah had warned,
        “the city of Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians in 586 BC. King Zedekiah tried to escape but was captured near Jericho and brought to Nebuchad­nezzar’s headquarters at Riblah where his sons were killed before his eyes, and then his own eyes put out.”

        You are so entangled in the devils lies that you refuse to see the truth even though it be pointed out to you.
        “There are none so blind as those who will not see”

        I don’t expect you to see the truth. The reason I’m responding to your nonsense is to stand for God’s truth and for the sake of other Christians that they might see your false gospel for what it is.

        I will finish by saying that you are pushing a false gospel which is not supported by the scriptures.

        Liked by 1 person

      18. Anthony William:
        November 1, 2022 at 6:15 pm

        AMEN ! Thank you, Anthony. I am saved not by my flesh’s intellectual carnal-minded faith but by God who gave me the Spirit of Christ’s obedient and holy faith. An academic faith will not save you. The faith that God gives is an eternal living faith resulting in obedience to the holy will of God. James makes the point that TRUE faith is evidenced by works.

        Like

      20. “There are none so blind as those who will not see” I don’t expect you to see the truth.
        — quote by Anthony

        To Anthony:
        There are none so blind as those who think they see better than the rest of us. They are not content to put forth their arguments without letting us know how ignorant and unstudied we are.

        Like

      21. Hello Rela

        We can debate about when is persecution/tribulation the wrath of God but the wrath that we are saved from is discribed as the “wrath of the Lamb”: in Revelation 6:16, and is referred to in Mathew 24 and Revelation 6.

        The first five seals correlate with the tribulation period. They include famines and pestilences and war.

        But t’s only when the sixth seal is opened that the great “day of His wrath is declared.”

        “17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?; ” (Revelation 6:17)

        The heavenly signs which are manifest when the sixth seal is opened, correlate with the heavenly signs in Mathew 24 which happen immediately after the great tribulation.

        If you compare them, you will see that the opening of the sixth seal happens immediately after the great tribulation.

        Revelation 6
        “12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

        13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

        14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

        15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

        16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:”
        ***
        Now let’s look at how the heavenly signs which accompany the day of wrath, happen immediately after the tribulation.

        Mathew 24
        “29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

        30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

        31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

        So, the ‘day of his wrath’ is seen to happen AFTER the tribulation.

        The trumpets and bowls are not mentioned until after the ‘day of his wrath’ is declared.

        So, there is no pre-trib or mid- trib rapture but there is a PRE -WRATH rapture. It will happen at the coming of Jesus Christ and his angels and will be a truly Magnificent and Visible event which will be seen by the whole world.

        Like

      22. Relasays:
        November 1, 2022 at 7:34 pm

        You are siding with someone who is shredding the scriptures. But that doesn’t matter to you. You prefer to blindly follow his narrative and his insults against me without addressing any of his indiscretions.

        I am pointing out his lies for the sake of others. I don’t care what you think of me but don’t take sides with somebody that says “but only the writings of Paul are TO us.”

        His views are so far removed from God’s truth that he only accepts Paul’s writings as being to us, Does God’s truth not matter to you?

        Liked by 1 person

      23. Correction @ Anthony William says: November 1, 2022 at 8:30 pm in my comment to Rela

        By putting inverted commas in the wrong place, I accidently misquoted a part of Revelation 6:17, when I said:

        But t’s only when the sixth seal is opened that the great “day of His wrath is declared.”

        Here’s what I meant to say:

        But t’s only when the sixth seal is opened that the “great day of his wrath” is declared.

        I was referring to Revelation 6:17 which says

        “17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

        Like

      24. God does NOT create the Beast System or set up the NWO. Those are set up in defiance of Him.
        The Beast System causes the Great Tribulation. NOT the same thing as God’s wrath or judgment at all. The Seven Bowls of His wrath come later as punishment for this attempt at a One World Government.
        In Revelation 7 it mentions God’s seal on those He wishes to protect. I guess the fact that it only mentions 144,000 Jewish male virgins could be used for a pre Trib argument. A far better one worth listening to.
        But calling the Beast System “God’s wrath” is like saying that killing the baby boys of the Hebrews and making bricks without straw were among the Ten Plagues of Egypt.

        Liked by 1 person

      25. You’re right…the Beast system is not God’s wrath. But the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments ARE God’s wrath poured out during the 7 years ON the Beast sytem and all those who swear allegiance to it. The 144,000 who are sealed plus the two witnesses are the ones preaching the Gospel. And the remnant of Israel that don’t go along with the Beast system flee to the wilderness where they are protected by God. So the Lord has different means of protecting different groups that belong to Him (some are sealed supernaturally and preach, some to go a place of refuge where they are supernaturally protected, and some are raptured before the 7 years start).

        Like

      26. Thank you Rachel for, yet again, pointing out this important misconception and using the Bible to do it. But I’m afraid we are beating our heads against the proverbial stone wall. We are dealing with Christians here who have been subjected to years of faulty teaching from their pastors. I blame the pastors, not these good folks on my site, for this confusion. What’s going on here at the basic core level is you have a few evangelical seminaries that were infiltrated with this confused, non-biblical teaching and they have been pumping out pastors with degrees in “Bible” that were taught bad doctrine when it comes to eschatology and then they pass that bad doctrine on to their congregants. So when those congregants bump into someone who has it right, it sounds wrong, because all they’ve ever known was the pre-trib, pre-millennial interpretation. They can’t imagine it any other way, even when you point it out to them in the text like you so ably did in your above comment. They will still reject it because it’s not what their pastor, their assistant pastor and their bible-study teachers have taught them, many of them from the time they were very young. In the end, it’s not a matter of salvation. Regardless of how we see the timing of end-times events, we are all brothers and sisters in the Lord if we believe the basics, that being Jesus is the Son of God who died on a Roman cross and rose again on the Third Day, thereby providing a way of salvation for those who believe in him and repent of their past sins. We all can agree that we ESCAPE an eternity in hell even if we can’t agree on what we will experience here on earth before the Lord’s return. My only concern about the pre-tribbers is that some of them might take the mark of the beast because they won’t want to believe it is the mark of the beast if they are still here and not raptured up. But I leave that in the Lord’s hands.

        Liked by 2 people

      27. Hello Leo I’ve just been talking to another dispensationalist
        who shares the view that ONLY Paul’s letters are addressed to Christians. This seems to be a new twist in the dispensationalist web of lies.

        It is dangerous because it causes those who believe it to lose out on all of the instruction given to Christians in the gospels and in the letters of the apostles. This will spread like a pandemic and will create an intolerance for God’s truth and those who try to share it. It is a very dangerous escalation in the dispensationalist barrage against God’s truth.

        I believe that there is a demonic spirit at the heart of this delusion. I’ts virtually impossible to change the minds of those who have been corrupted by it as you have pointed out.

        I’ll go a step further and say that many of those who have succumbed to this delusion will almost certainly succumb to the great delusion which will accompany the revealing of the man of sin because they have already departed from the truth.

        We are told in 2nd Thessalonians 2 that they will succumb to the delusion because they did not receive a love of the truth so as to be saved.

        True faith is evidenced by an adherence to God’s truth through the working of the Spirit of truth.

        I can understand somebody getting confused as a result of bad teaching but if they continuedly refuse the truth after it is pointed out to them then I fear that they do not have the Holy Spirit in which case they are Christians by name only.

        Christians need to vigorously oppose the dispensationalist lie.

        Liked by 1 person

      28. What it really comes down to is that we have ALL disobeyed God and it began just over 6,000 yrs ago in The Garden of Eden. Not to get on a sexist male-chauvinist pig thing, but man (well, back then anyhow) was stronger than the woman….Satan knew it and in order to bring man (Adam) down he’d have a better chance at first bringing down the woman, Female (Eve)…. Actually we disobeyed God YHWH , He said “Ok!… Here is what you get with the serpent , satan,(devil)
        So, actually He has allowed His punishment, wrath, thru ol Satan.
        It does actually say in the Holy Bible that God does perform Both Good and Evil!
        I forget the scripture, but it’s there, but God Always turns Evil into Good at the End! God WILL ALWAYS be Above satan, but He allows him his short rein to show us what disobeying GOD (THE TRUE ONE) brings!
        God is going to END EVIL and He’s going to End satan and his ugly goons!
        NOBODY Alive right now has Witnessed this Earth as it was meant to be or First Was back in the Days of The Garden of Eden….Adam & Eve did, but they blew it!
        But this world / Earth will be brought back to it’s perfect state and those who accept God (Yahweh) and His Son Will get a chance to be a part and live in it, for a Thousand years… The Heaven part will come right afterwards and with a New Born-from Above Spiritual body just like Jesus Christ (Yahshua) received shortly after His resurrection.
        No one gets in to Heaven in these mortal corrupt bodies.

        Liked by 1 person

  9. Maybe we need to just get back on the topic of How We Resist the Globalist Agenda?… Rapture or no Rapture we are All Here for now and we have to Stand Together and Together in Christ. None of us is leaving just yet, and those of us whom have children then need to keep fighting the beast for them, and for the Elderly and Disabled and others.
    We’re supposed to stand strong in our Faith of God’s Holy Word, Trust & Believe in Him and His Son. Our faith is supposed to carry us through death and not out of or frees us from it.
    We Need to continue to pray for Wisdom & Strength to get through this mess not praying to instantly be zoomed up out of it.

    Liked by 2 people

    2. Amen! Well said dear reader. It’s interesting how I never write about the timing of the rapture and yet it NEVER fails that it becomes the central topic onto which some readers like to steer the conversation.

      Liked by 2 people

      1. These words, especially are wonderful to hear: ” Rapture or no Rapture we are All Here for now and we have to Stand Together and Together in Christ.” It’s a great testimony to the world. (By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.)

        Liked by 2 people

      1. Pray says:
        October 30, 2022 at 2:02 am

        RE: Rapture or no Rapture we are All Here for now and we have to Stand Together and Together in Christ.” It’s a great testimony to the world. (By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.)

        Rapture or no Rapture we fruitful wheat and noxious weeds are All Here for now and we have to Stand Together and Together in Christ.” It’s a great testimony to the world. (By this all men will know that you noxious weeds and fruitful wheat are My disciples, if you have love for one another.)

        Like

      2. John Shaphat, “noxious weeds”:

        Onward Christian Soldier! Maybe someone here should erect a monument to your “zeal.” Since you enjoy throwing sucker punches at those who disagree with you, why don’t you wander over to The Gateway Pundit? But take care – it’s a conservative website only and not necessarily Christian, like this one. So you’d better learn how to duck – some of them won’t turn the other cheek.

        Liked by 1 person

    5. After the attack on Paul Pelosi I expect that there will be a clampdown on forums like this, under the guise of preventing hate speech.

      This incident will be used to create a catalyst for new restrictions on free speech.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. I believe the days are at hand where the true believers in Christ will have to take a stand. Which side of the fence are you on , The days of wishy washy lukewarmness are over . It will be a clear cut decision do you stand for Christ and His Gospel , yes or no .

        Matt: 5:8 but if the salt loses its flavor , how shall it be seasoned ? Is it then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men .

        If we are the salt of the earth then everywhere we go and say and do has to be seasoned around us . If people don’t know you are a believer in Jesus Christ and that He is Lord over all then its time to speak up and show up where God is leading you .

        Leo is a great example of that and we all need to do the same . The opportunities will be endless to share the gospel but don’t expect praise from this world , they will hate you all the more because of His names sake . Your reward comes only later when we are welcomed into His kingdom because of the blood of the lamb

        Praise be to God our Lord and savior Jesus Christ . Amen

        Liked by 2 people

      2. Yes! And The WHO (Not the Rock Band) is joining in on YouTube Censorship helping make sure that NO USER or CHANNEL is spreading MIS-Information or DIS0Information I have the link

        Like

      3. Of course, such a clampdown did not happen after Steve Scalise and the other four or five who were shot at the baseball practice (the shooter asked if those on the field were Republicans or Dems and started shooting when he heard they were Republicans). But since Paul Pelosi is a Dem and the husband of a Dem leader, that requires “immediate action.”

        Liked by 1 person

    6. Two things I keep thinking about–along with food and protection. Communication and transportation. We need to set up an alternative infrastructure. Soon.
      People don’t realize how important these will be if some hot heads start a civil war. I’m not a coward nor a pacifist (I respect them though) but oppose any violent uprising because it will only lead to pointless suffering and deaths. It won’t achieve anything good.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. So Very True Rachel! I have a friend down South in Vail and he is 200 miles from me in Prescott. He is getting into Ham radios, but I don’t know anything about it. We’re ALL TOGETHER HERE, but a lotta good that’s going to do when the yank the lever on the Net.
        Trying to unite with people close by with similar views on what’s going on is very hard to find! Neighbors, well I have one next door who being a Democrap.. is Against the vaccine and against Biden’s gun laws, and he is concerned about Russia and Nuclear War.
        He is a Survivalist and has friends with land, lots of it and claims they’re trying to get set up if all hell breaks out. He will definitely help my Mom (94) and I…………………BUT…. He isn’t a Christian and he won’t get into ‘Last Days’/ End Times discussion…/So I don’t know how far we can trust him and his group.

        He is the one over 20 yrs ago woke me up about 911 and the Twin Towers and all of that, The video he shared was a VHS (Remember those?) Copy of “IN PLANE SITE”….. down the rabbit hole I’ve been!
        David Icke-Alex Jones and Jonathan Kleck and Montagraph and many many more.

        (Isn’t it a coincidence we’ve been taught “NEVER DISCUSS POLITICS or RELIGION WITH ANYONE”???)

        This all is where Having FAITH in God and by having Jesus on your side comes in!

        Like

      2. My guess is that many like your friend will come to Jesus in the time ahead. Expect more bifurcation. And a new unity. A coming apart and a coming together. Two friends of mine have already lost their atheism.
        God is letting Satan and the people he has most control over show their ugliness at its fullest. The sight of the fullness of their sins–the coming Hell-on-earth–is a warning to deter them from a literal Hell.

        Liked by 1 person

  10. Anthony Williamsays:
    October 29, 2022 at 10:35 am

    Your comments are contentious.
    We are to contend for the faith, but not be contentious.
    You also have made presumptions about Pre-Trib believers that are inaccurate and have made a grand display of your enormous pride. To engage with you further would detract from the message of hope in Christ and God’s love into more tedious arguments, for which, according to your pattern, you will continue to use as opportunity to project your own “vanity” and “steadfast refusal” onto the Pre-Trib believer.
    Instead of focusing so much on what “YOU SAY” or “I SAY,” let the reader make Holy-Spirit-led conclusions on “WHAT DOES GOD SAY!”
    That is why I provided lists of Bible verses that prove Dispensationalism and the Pre-Trib Rapture, and most importantly, the Gospel of the Grace of Jesus Christ.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. @ JesusIsComing October 29, 2022 at 4:03 pm

      I have pointed out your glaring errors but rather than learn from your mistakes you choose to dig in your heels and to oppose the truth.

      Your comment says more about yourself than it does about me. You don’t want to take this discussion further because you have been proven wrong and you know that your borrowed dispensationalist notions can’t stand up to fair biblical scrutiny.

      You don’t understand the scriptures. Instead, you rely on the false teachings of dispensationalists such as the convicted fraudster Cyrus Scofield.

      Your hope isn’t in Christ. If it were then you would adhere to his teachings.

      Like

      1. Dispensationalism is a very dirty word for some, but all it means is that there are different stages of God’s interactions with and requirements for His people during different periods of time.
        For example, in the beginning during Adam and Eve’s time, God walked with man and there was one commandment– to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
        It was of course different for Noah’s time, and for Abraham’s time, and for Christ’s time, and for us now, and for the Tribulation period, and for the Millenium, and for eternity.
        We are currently in the Age of Grace–that those who believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ have received the gift of His salvation and are made perfect in His blood.

        Salvation by Grace/Faith
        1 Corinthians 15: 1-4
        Ephesians 2: 8-9
        Galatians 3, 4, 5
        John 3: 16
        John 14: 6

        Made Spotless by the Blood of Christ:
        Romans 3: 25-31
        Romans 4: 1-5
        1 Corinthians 1: 8,
        1 Corinthians 1: 30-31
        1 Corinthians 6:11
        2 Corinthians 5: 17-21
        Ephesians 1: 7
        Colossians 1: 12-20
        Colossians 2: 13-17

        Christ did not preach that because it hadn’t yet happened. He was alive and preached a Kingdom Gospel intended for the Jews as evidenced in Matthew 15:24: “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” The woman of Canaan here was one of the Gentile exceptions I mentioned in another comment that shows Jesus came unto the Jews to preach to the Jews to save the Jews, in which they were to believe that He was indeed their prophesied Messiah. The thief on the cross believed he was Who He said he was, and Jesus told Him in Luke 23:43, “Assuredly, I tell you, today you will be with Me in paradise” and was spiritually saved, no baptism or anything else required except faith.
        But the Jews as a nation/race/corporate body accepted him not, so salvation was extended to the Gentiles in God’s immaculate plan of redemption for the whole world. Paul was called to be the apostle for this new dispensation and preach the Gospel of the Grace of Jesus Christ:
        Acts 9:15-16
        Acts 22: 21
        Romans 11:11-13
        Romans 16: 25
        1 Corinthians 1:17-18
        1 Corinthians 3:9-11
        1 Corinthians 4:14-16
        1 Corinthians 11:1
        Ephesians 2:11-13
        Ephesians 3:1-13
        Galatians 1:9-24
        Galatians 2
        Colossians 1: 23-28
        1 Timothy 2: 5-7

        If you don’t seek, you cannot find. Please look up the verses as the Holy Spirit leads.
        If one does not rightly divide the Word of God, he will end up trying to fulfill religious requirements that were intended for other people and other periods of time. Blended smoothies are great, and scrambled eggs are great too, but to try to assemble doctrine from blended and scrambled Bible verses will lead to many messy contradictions and confusion and weaken the Christian testimony. Hence so many Christian denominations and cults divided on legalistic issues like water baptism, speaking in tongues, Sunday or Saturday or 7th day church services, clothing requirements, restrictive diets, watching for new moons and properly celebrating festivals…religious issues that are JEWISH in nature, which is what Paul clears up in Colossians 2:16-17.
        One must understand how rightly divide.

        For example, those who preach that we are to follow Christ’s Kingdom Gospel “doctrine,” one must ask, follow to what extent?
        According to God’s standards, that extent must be to the point of perfection, right?
        Only Christ can and has fulfilled that standard.
        Those of you who criticize and judge others for not following Christ, have you sold all of your possessions, given all the proceeds to the poor, and live on or even just walk the streets preaching salvation in his name? Have gone so far as to try to become Jewish in your religious way of life and traditions?
        I have actually met that person who put her money where her mouth is in the here and now (not postponing that “fight for Christ” when the time comes in the future Tribulation). She admitted to me she was homeless and then proceeded to hand me a pamphlet about how real followers of Christ are to do as she and her group has done–leave home and work and those responsibilities, have no possessions other than the clothes on their backs, and preach how to “follow Christ,” just as they have. The pamphlet goes on to describe how their meals come from the abundance of food tossed by grocery stores in garbage cans and how they are to fight the Anti-Christ system in the Tribulation…
        So you can see that not rightly dividing can lead one on a very difficult and even dangerous path steeped in legalism.
        And no, I am not preaching a prosperity gospel. I just want to show that Dispensationalism will help one rightly divide, and that Christ made our yoke easy and our burden light as far as legalism is concerned. He fulfilled the impossible requirements of perfection for us. Our future is not one of doom and gloom and onerous struggle and condemnation, but of life and life abundantly and complete redemption and true freedom in Christ Jesus–and this point made so clearly in Romans 8!

        The word “dispensation” is used numerous times in the writings of Paul, so it is a not a bad word that should bring division but rather unity among believers. Also, in his writings, will one find the words “fullness of the Gentiles” and “mystery,” which will lead to learning about our Blessed Hope.
        2 Timothy 2: 15 advises:
        “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”
        Rightly dividing. I won’t be ashamed for it.
        And I will not be ashamed in my faith alone in Jesus Christ or for trying to show people the goodness and love of God for us. The Gospel of Grace is the Good News for everyone who will believe.

        Like

      2. JesusisComing: In your previous post, you gave us much food for thought. Now you’re giving us a feast! Thank you again!

        Like

      3. You mean the Seventh Day Adventist teachings, not Christ’s teachings, since that’s the denomination you belong to. Fair enough. Now I know where you’re coming from.

        Like

      4. @ JesusIsComing October 29, 2022 at 7:35 pm

        Hello
        The word ‘dispensation’ is only mentioned three times in the KJV.
        With regard to Paul the dispensation mentioned is referring to the dispensation/ministry/stewardship given to him at his calling .
        It is not describing a given era as you seem to suggest.

        It is also used when referring to God gathering together in one all things in Christ and again is being used in an administrative context.

        Here is the Greek word used to describe dispensation:

        #3622 οἰκονομία oikonomia {oy-kon-om-ee’-ah}
        1) the management of a household or of household affairs
        1a) specifically, the management, oversight, administration, of
        other’s property
        1b) the office of a manager or overseer, stewardship
        1c) administration, dispensation
        —Thayer’s (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
        From G3623; administration (of a household or estate); specifically a (religious) “economy”:—dispensation, stewardship.
        —Strong’s (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)
        #3622.
        οι᾿κονομι´α
        oikonomia; from 3621; stewardship, administration:—
        NASB – administration(3), management(3), stewardship(3).
        1 Corinthians 9:17. Ephesians 1:10; 3:2. Colossians 1:25.

        The same Greek word is used in Luke 16 with regard to steward and is translated as “stewardship”
        Luke 16:2, 3, 4.

        Of course, there are different periods of time during the history of God’s dealing with his people. But dispensationalism introduces fictional time frames.
        The most common time frame they use is made up of seven dispensations.
        In an effort to make this fictional time frame fit they totally distort bible verses like Revelation 3;10. in which case they’ve isolated the verse from the context of its surrounding verses.

        They misinterpret the word ‘church’ in order to exclude the tribulation saints.
        They divide the church and redefine it in an effort to make it fit into a two-thousand-year period.

        They misinterpret Daniel 9.27 in an effort to make it fit with their unbiblical seven-year time frame for the tribulation.

        They exclude Christians from being among the ‘elect’ despite saint Peter saying the opposite.

        The problem with dispensationalism is that it clearly does NOT rightly divide the word. It is in fact over dividing the word, as I’ve shown in previous comments

        In my previous comment I pointed out some glaring errors in the dispensationalist view. But yet you come back saying that it is the only way to rightly divide the word. I hope that this additional comment will cause you to reconsider.

        God has from the beginning used Israel to reveal himself to the world. Christ was a Jew in order to fulfil the legal requirements of the Mosaic law which was a shadow of things to come.
        Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the Mosaic law, but he preached the deeper spiritual law by which all men will be judged. he abolished the rituals of the Mosaic law, but the spiritual law is still in effect.

        So, when Jesus preached the spiritual law, he was addressing all mankind.

        In Christ, both Jewish and gentile believers are united.

        Jesus said that He has other sheep

        “14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

        15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

        16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”

        When Jesus spoke about the future, he was addressing both Jewish and Gentile believers.

        In his discourse in Mathew 24 Jesus is addressing the ‘elect’ through the generations to come.
        The dispensationalists reject this They say that the elect is referring exclusively to Israel.

        But this is yet another dispensationalist error. Because we know that the Christian church are the elect, which includes both Jews and Gentiles

        If you read 1st Peter, you will see that Peter addresses the Christian church as the ‘elect’

        “1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

        2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

        This cannot be disputed.

        With regard to baptism;

        Water Baptism is a ritual which is used to bear witness and is not restricted to Jewish rituals.
        In the bible water baptism was used to publicly proclaim and bear witness to a new believer being immersed into the name of Jesus Christ showing him to be their lord and saviour.
        But it is not the ritual that saves a Christian. The ritual is a public display of faith and symbolises the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
        Titus 3:5
        Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

        True faith is evidenced by our response and obedience to the gospel and our adherence to the teaching of Christ and his apostles. If a believer doesn’t show that evidence, then perhaps his faith is just an academic acknowledgement but has no spiritual substance and no working of the holy spirit.
        In which case that person’s faith is dead because he has not been made alive by the holy spirit
        Throughout the New Testament, the Christian faith is evidenced by actions on the part of the Christians.

        A true faith produces obedience to God in thought, deed and action.

        I hope you find this comment helpful. If you have any questions just let me know.

        Liked by 1 person

      5. @Pray October 30, 2022 at 6:44 am

        I am NOT a Seventh Day Adventist.

        I am a Christian and that is all.

        I do not subscribe to any denomination.

        If you want to understand where I’m coming from then I suggest that you read the bible, preferably the Authorised King James Version 1611.

        If you want to understand the bible, then I suggest that you avoid the fiction of Scofield and the Dispensationalists and instead read the bible with your own eyes.

        Liked by 1 person

      6. My mistake, Andrew – sorry! I have a huge curiosity and have been trying to figure out where you get some of your beliefs, especially the idea of Jesus and the saints being in Heaven during the entire Millennial Reign, instead of in Israel, as prophesied over and over in the Old Testament. I did a search and discovered that particular belief is one of the tenets of Seventh Day Adventism. You must be curious about where some of us here get our beliefs? Absolutely first and foremost through the scriptures! Always! And, additionally for me, personally, Messianic Jewish and charismatic.

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      7. Spoken like a true judgmental, condemning, know-it-all, unloving, perfect Pharisee.
        But you are not the author and finisher of my faith!

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      8. At ‘JesusIsComing’ October 31, 2022 at 3:00 am

        You come on this site pushing a false doctrine and when you are proven wrong you resort to personal insults.
        This shows that you are in denial.

        God is not the author of confusion. If God was the author of your faith, then you would love His truth.

        Your false dispensationalist doctrine has failed to stand up to fair biblical scrutiny and you know it. You are not in God’s truth, and you have shunned the light.

        I’m reminded of John 3:20

        “For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.”

        Liked by 1 person

  11. john shaphatsays:
    October 29, 2022 at 4:18 am

    Your posts are confusing to read and understand and you have even manipulated the Scriptures by inserting your own words. God’s Word can stand on its own!
    I don’t disagree that we should be obedient. By posting on here and replying to you in this particular comment, I am being obedient to the Holy Spirit’s prompting.
    Your posts always center on “foolish virgins.” You seem to be constantly trying to disparage and place Pre-Trib believers or anyone who disagrees with you into that category.
    1 Corinthians 1: 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
    My posts are quite clear in that I consistently point the reader to Jesus Christ and His Finished Work and have provided much Scripture to support any other claims that I make about a Pre-Trib Rapture or Dispensationalism.

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    1. JesusIsComing says:
      October 29, 2022 at 3:36 pm

      RE: The Holy Spirit’s posts always center on “foolish virgins.” Christ’s Advocate seems to be constantly trying to disparage and place Pre-Trib believers or anyone who disagrees with Him into that category.

      The divisive gospel of Christ’s Word is a sharp 2-edged sword of Truth, that always centers upon separating the ‘virgins’ within His holy Bride—sanctifying God’s fruitful wheat from the Devil’s noxious tares within the Commonwealth of Israel.

      Not Universal Global Peace in Socialism’s Democratic Reset, But Life-saving Division in Christ’s Theocratic Kingdom (Matthew 10:34-36)

      Luke 12:49 Elijah and… “I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather DIVISION: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

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  13. The most critical elections are coming up: Tuesday, November 1st for Israel, and Tuesday, November 8th for the U.S. Please pray for both countries and ask the Lord for His mercy and favor, that the citizens of Israel and the U.S. would choose the best, strongest, wisest (and if possible, most godly) leaders

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  14. WW3 is a possibility for sure using nukes would lower the population in a hurry.
    The rich would be in their 25yr bomb shelters while the rest of us take iodine pills……until they run out in a year.
    But Biblically I just dont see that happening. Wars might wipe out a 1/4 or is it 1/3 of the population, depending where it happens. But God has other means
    of lowering in the population. Primarily after the middle of the 70th week, when
    we wont be here…….pre wrath rapture.
    Also dont forget the Boston Lab info [which I believe someone leaked] on the new pandemic with an 80% kill rate……that would be even more effective than a war!
    All those millions vaxed would be the first to go.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Hello Marcus Just remember that pre-wrath is not pre-trib. Christians will go through the great tribulation.

      Like

    1. Agreed, especially since He is the author of the Bible. But some people will quote 2 Peter 1:20, “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation,” and draw the conclusion that we can’t really understand scripture on our own. They forget that it’s always important to consider a verse or verses within the context of the entire passage. For instance, if you read 2 Peter 1:19-21,

      “And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.”

      You see that Peter isn’t saying a reader can’t understand the Bible, but that the scriptures are His words, not the thoughts, words or private interpretations of the writers. Not only that, verse 19 says it is “a light that shines in a dark place,” which echoes Psalm 119:130,

      “The entrance of Your words gives light; It gives understanding to the simple.”

      The more we read His Word, the more we will understand it, and not only the Bible, but His heart, His character, His will, His love for us and His plans.

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      1. Consider the great variety of private interpretations of Scripture among the readers of Scripture (especially of the apocalyptic sections) seen among nearly all commentators on this site. There are few agreements on what any of it means as no one can interpret with any authority. A real picture of Christianity today that demonstrates our intractable divisions. It’s not just the writers of prophesy that must not be subject to private interpretations but the readers and hearers also. The Church was given the authority to interpret Scripture, but today everyone goes his own way, led by what spirit?? The Bible does not interpret itself in every verse. Many verses are difficult—for example numerous verses reference ancient Jewish traditions not generally known to Gentile readers. Our insistence on our private interpretations is leading us into confusion and endless contention if not temptation to heresy.

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  16. Prophecies in Revelation and also in the Old Testament use symbolic and figurative language which only the mind of Christ’s Advocate Spirit can properly interpret while guiding His holy Bride into ALL Truth. So, having the mind of Christ, Elohim’s elect wise virgins will powerfully expound upon the Revelation prophesies of Christ and His apostles.
    In the light of the Advocate’s clear teaching, Christ and his glorified saints rule from the New Jerusalem over this earth which we know will be cleansed by refining fire as stated by Peter in 2nd Peter 3.

    If you love Me, you will obey My commandments. And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever—the Spirit of truth… the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you. John 14:15-26

    “I have told you (i.e. wise virgins) these things so that you will not fall away (i.e. with Socialism’s digitally secured foolish virgins). They will put you out of the synagogues. In fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. They will do these things because they have not known the Father or Me. But I have told you these things so that when their hour comes, you will remember that I told you about them. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it. However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come. He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you. Everything that belongs to the Father is Mine. That is why I said that the Spirit will take from what is Mine and disclose it to you. John 16:1-16

    Liked by 1 person

  17. @Anthony October 26, 2022 at 7:08 pm

    Thanks Anthony for your response , I will study in detail what you have mentioned. I still find it very sad that this has become (actually always has been ) a divisional point within the church .

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Hello Frank as Christians we have to follow in the footsteps of Christ and the apostles by standing up for the truth and challenging false teaching.
      Christ and the apostles spent much of their time opposing false doctrine. Doctrine by it’s nature causes division as we can see throughout the bible.

      Christians have been martyred for proclaiming the truth. Look at Stephen when he dared to stand for the truth. Look at the Christian martyrs who were murdered because they would not accept the edicts of apostate Roman Catholic church. And what about Tyndale who was burnt at the stake.
      Doctrine helps define us as Christians and exposes apostasy. It helps to protect us from being led astray.

      The pretribulation rapture was disputed by Paul in 2nd Thessalonians 2. When he clarified the sequence of events which must happen before the return of Christ to rapture his saints. But typically, the pretribbers have taken a couple of verses from this chapter and have twisted them in their reckless pursuit of a false ideal.

      Any division on this matter is because there has been a sustained onslaught against God’s truth which has blinded many Christians causing them to be complicit in cloaking the timing of the man of sin.

      This blindness will allow the man of sin to surface with very little opposition because Christians have a wrong focus. There’s a trick magicians and conmen use to fool people. It’s called misdirection and that is what the devil has used very successfully with the fake pretribulation rapture.

      But thankfully there are some Christians who have not been fooled by the pretribulation rapture lie and who refuse to be passive about it.

      Liked by 2 people

      1. The difference between “pre-tribbers” and “post-tribbers” (or pre-wrath) is becoming glaringly more obvious with each post.
        According to the comments here, believers in a Pre-Tribulation rapture trust in Christ alone for salvation.
        Those of your persuasion trust in Christ and also their own works for salvation.
        Both cannot be true, so this has become an issue of salvation and of division.
        Your first words admit that we must follow Christ and His apostles. But which apostles?
        Believers in a pre-tribulation rapture get their Bible doctrine (and understanding of the Church/Body of Christ as a “Mystery” from the writings of Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles.

        Paul as the Apostle to the Gentiles (not an exhaustive list):
        Acts 9:15-16
        1 Corinthians 1: 17-18
        1 Corinthians 3: 9-11
        1 Corinthians 4: 14-16
        1 Corinthians 11: 1
        Ephesians 2: 11-13
        Ephesians 3: 1-13
        Galatians 1:9-24
        Galatians 2
        Colossians 1: 23-28
        1 Timothy 2: 5-7

        We believe in salvation through faith ALONE in the finished work of Jesus Christ (again, not an exhaustive list):
        1 Corinthians 15:1-4
        Ephesians 2:8-9
        Galatians 3, 4, 5
        John 14: 6

        And we believe we are made spotless by the blood of Christ (not by our works):
        Romans 3: 25-31
        Romans 4: 1-5
        1 Corinthians 1: 8
        1 Corinthians 1: 30-31
        1 Corinthians 6: 11
        2 Corinthians 5: 17-21
        Ephesians 1: 7
        Colossians 1: 12-20
        Colossians 2: 13-17

        Some further questions that should lead you to learn about Dispensationalism:
        To whom did Jesus preach to? the Jews
        To whom did the first 12 apostles teach to? the Jews
        So the commandments and instructions from Jesus and the remaining 11 are very Jewish; for example, the teaching of water baptism comes out of the strict Jewish laws for cleansing and washing with water. That is why there seems to be a contradiction in God’s Word, and why so many Christian denominations are divided on the issue.
        In our current Age of Grace, there are no requirements for salvation other than faith in Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection.
        He preached to the Jews differently BEFORE the cross (it was a Kingdom Gospel). Paul received the Gospel of the Grace of Jesus Christ from a risen, glorified God AFTER the cross (and after the rejection of Stephen) and was the first to bring us the Gospel of Grace, and he brought it to the Gentiles, which had not previously been done. With few exceptions, Gentiles were not preached to before Paul. It was a new dispensation. That is why salvation by grace alone is so clearly found in Paul’s writings and why other letters and books seem to contradict this.
        So you see, an understanding of Dispensationalism changes one’s beliefs dramatically. Otherwise, one mixes up the Kingdom Gospel with the Gospel of the Grace of Jesus Christ.
        Or the Second Coming with the Rapture.
        And it is through the understanding of Dispensationalism that one can begin to understand the “Mystery” of the Church/Bride/Body of Christ and how we simply do not fit into the Time of Jacob’s Trouble. That time is reserved for those who rejected God’s Son and Gift of Salvation. That is why martyrdom will be so prevalent during that time.
        And as for 2 Thessalonians 2, that is excellent proof in support of a Pre-Trib Rapture. The Thessalonians thought they were already in the Tribulation (at that time it was hidden from believers that the “Church Age/Age of Grace” would be a 2000 year period of time–again this is a part of the “Mystery” described in Paul’s writings). But Paul assures them that the Tribulation had not yet begun, and reassures them of “our gathering unto Him” and “day of Christ” (which is language in reference to the Rapture). He further describes how the Tribulation will not begin until “there come a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed the son of perdition…”
        It was Tyndale’s translations along with the Coverdale and Geneva where the original word is “departure”, a physical departure, not “falling away.” That physical departure is the Rapture. The Rapture will take place before the Anti-Christ is revealed. Otherwise, God in His love for us would have advised us to be watchful of the Anti-Christ instead of for our Blessed Hope, which we know is not the case. We are to keep our eyes on the Lord.
        (But even if you’d prefer the “falling away” translation, that is happening before our very eyes.)
        I hope this blows your minds as much as it did mine, and that it unlocks your understanding of the Bible in much greater ways, mostly in salvation by faith alone in Christ Jesus.
        God bless you all.

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      3. JesusIsComing says:
        October 28, 2022 at 7:41 pm

        RE: In our current (lawless) Age of Grace, there are no requirements (i.e. no required obedience to the law of Christ) for salvation other than (rhetorical) faith in Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection.

        Many carnal-minded virgins in Christ’s Bride foolishly believe in the Angel of Light’s Dispensational Pre-Trib-rapture heresy. They self-righteously put the carnal-minded faith of their deceitful “old wineskin” hearts in Christ ALONE, without obediently taking up their daily cross and working out their salvation with fear and trembling. For the “New Wine” of Christ’s faithful Spirit does not indwell and daily work out salvation within their lawless, reprobate “old wineskin” hearts (Philippians 2:12-13; Ezekiel 36:26-27; Luke 5:37).

        Gifted with the holy faith of Christ’s obedient Spirit (i.e. the New Wine of God’s saving grace that empowers new wineskin hearts), Moses, Joshua, Caleb, and the Gentile prostitute Rehab did not harden their hearts in unbelief as did 99.99 % of the Israelites who perished in the wilderness. As you can see, a man (i.e. Abel, Noah, Abram, Saul of Tarsus) is justified by his holy faith’s obedient deeds and not by vain, rhetorical faith alone. In the same way, was not even Rahab the Gentile prostitute justified by her faith’s righteous actions when she welcomed the spies and sent them off on another route? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without the in-heart workings of Christ’s obedient Spirit is dead.…

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      4. 2 Thessalonians 2:3.
        Stop perverting the scriptures to suit your false beliefs. The falling away mentioned in 2nd Thessalonians 2:3. is a translation of the word apostasia which means a “defection , a revolt or rebellion.”

        ἀποστασία apostasia {ap-os-tas-ee’-ah}
        1) a falling away, defection, apostasy
        —Thayer’s (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
        defection from truth (“apostasy”):—falling away, forsake.
        —Strong’s (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)

        In 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Paul is referring to a defection from the truth.
        You are promoting a false doctrine which is assisting the devil because it is destroying the testimony of the church.
        Paul is writing to the Thessalonians in order to refute a false pretribulation rapture doctrine which claimed that the coming of Christ was at hand. Paul says that this is not true and to prove it he gives a sequence of events which must happen before the rapture.

        He says
        1. That the apostasy must happen
        2. The revealing of the man of sin sitting in the holy place claiming to be God must happen.
        This will be accompanied by false signs and wonders. All of these things must happen before the rapture which happens at the second coming of Christ when He will destroy the man of sin.
        Paul’s description correlates with Christs description which says that there will be false signs and wonders which would deceive the elect if that were possible.

        YOU SAY
        “Otherwise, God in His love for us would have advised us to be watchful of the Anti-Christ instead of for our Blessed Hope, which we know is not the case. We are to keep our eyes on the Lord.”

        I SAY
        God HAS told us to be watchful for the antichrist in this very letter, but you refuse to acknowledge the truth in your vain attempt to promote the very false doctrine which Paul has refuted.

        It is my belief that there is a spirit at work which has deluded pretribbers to the point where they steadfastly refuse the clear teaching of the scriptures and seek to circumvent it.

        You have become accomplices to Satan and you will reject and pervert any scriptures which contradict your delusion.

        This delusion is wrongfooting those who believe it so that instead of exposing the man of sin they are cloaking him. They have a false testimony, and they preach a false candy-coated gospel

        You say
        “(at that time it was hidden from believers that the “Church Age/Age of Grace” would be a 2000 year period of time–again this is a part of the “Mystery” described in Paul’s writings)”

        I SAY
        The church has been in existence since the Old Testament times.

        Stephen mentions the church in Acts 7 when he says
        38This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

        The church is the assembly of God’s people throughout history but dispensationalists pretend the church is restricted to a 2000 year age when the bible actually says no such thing.
        Paul never spake such nonsense. You are misrepresenting Paul with yet another lie.
        The church is the assembly of God’s people, past, present and future.
        Dispensationalism is a lie which over divides and misinterprets the bible.
        I suggest that you put aside the fake commentaries and read the bible with your own eyes and not through the false notions of others.

        Liked by 1 person

      5. Anthony, your tone in your comment is accusatory and unbecoming. We each do the best we can to interpret the scripture with the help of the Holy Spirit. A view that differs from yours is not a lie and a perversion. It’s a different view about difficult passages. You don’t have a monopoly on the truth. Fine, put forth your case but stop saying your brothers and sisters are lying and are perverting scripture.

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      6. Well said! It’s sad to see this kind of vitriol by post-tribbers against pre-tribbers. It reminds me of a really ugly period in early church history when words were taken to an extreme over differing beliefs about baptism. Peaceful Anabaptists, who embraced the baptism of the believer and rejected infant baptism, were severely persecuted by others within the church. I really think that as things progressively get worse, those who don’t know Jesus, but are searching for answers, will be visiting Christian websites more and more to hear if there really is any message of hope from His followers. Will they see the overwhelming love and peace that passes all understanding in our words to our brothers and sisters?

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      7. Pray, I have a serious question. Is the prospect of avoiding severe persecution and horrible suffering your only source of hope? The only thing that should keep Christians from falling away?
        I frequently find comments stating, “I’m not afraid because of my blessed hope that we will be gone before the Great Tribulation/Persecution.” “My faith is sound BECAUSE I believe Jesus won’t let His bride suffer.” “We shouldn’t have to suffer or die since Jesus already bought our salvation.”
        That is what bothers me more than a minor eschatological error we should agree to disagree over.
        I don’t want to go through such a horrible time, but that should not make me lose my faith and hope. Faith is holding fast to our knowledge–in the midst of fiery trials–that God will make good on His promises. Believing that He loves us. Regardless of the loss or affliction He calls on us to endure.
        God bless.

        Liked by 1 person

      8. Rachel, though you might encounter people who think we won’t have to suffer because of the pre-trib rapture, there are a lot of us who are pre-trib who believe there will be much persecution before the Tribulation ever starts. Just as Christians in the rest of the world have always–and are currently–experiencing persecution now. There is nothing to say we won’t be thrown in prison and tortured for our faith. Plus experience horrors of war, famine, etc. I personally don’t think the rapture is as close as some would believe.

        Liked by 1 person

      10. Regarding the “Rapture’ This seems to go right along with this “Prosperity’-*Feel Good’ type of preaching. “now if You are Really, Really following The Lord He will Give You a Financial Blessing! And dig Deeeep into your pockets now as The Collection Plate comes around!…. And like one old Televangelist (Ernest Engley) used to say “Now Put your HANDS up on Your TV Screen and let Me and Jesus HEEEEEAAL YOU!”
        And if You ARE TRULY SAVED and belong to Jesus YOU WILL BE RAISED, LIFTED UP, UP AND AWAAY OUT of this world before the Horrifying and Troublesome days of the TRIBULATION begins!!! Only the poor unsaved buggers go through Tribulation and then Armageddon and then to hell!….. There may be a few Christians saying down the line-“MY GOD, MY GOD! WHY HAVE THOUT FORSAKEN ME!”
        … May God Almighty for The Elect’s Sake cut the days short!

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      11. Hi Kgazin,

        I can sense your anger and hurt here, and I’m sorry if any of us have sounded crass or insensitive about the heartache and horrors of the coming Tribulation. We’re all still growing and have much to learn about the tender heart of our God. I have a sister, many other family members, and a dear friend who aren’t saved, and I’ve been trying to share with them about the Lord in little ways, as best I can. Every time I hear or read the news, I’m feeling stunned and honestly, overwhelmed with how fast it’s all falling into place. There’s an urgency more than ever to try to spread the Gospel however and whenever I can. Recently, several red heifers were flown to Israel, and some Christians were excited because that’s tied into the Bible prophecy about the third temple, and it means that Jesus is coming soon. If they had really thought that one through, they would see that there’s nothing to be joyful about here, because a monster will be ascending into that temple halfway through the Tribulation to declare himself God and unleash the worst persecution and devastation the world has ever known. Every one of us has experienced the pain of losing a loved one, but I can’t imagine the grief our Lord will be feeling at the loss of all of those children of His who’ve rejected His salvation.

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      12. Rachel, thank you for all your comments here. It’s obvious they are coming from heartfelt experiences and I appreciate them. Plus, they are so direct and honest that no one can wiggle away from your questions! Sometimes it takes me a long time to answer someone, so please bear with me. First – to start with, I would be a fool if I placed my hope elsewhere and not in Jesus, especially now during these times. He has brought me through some pretty traumatic and even life-threatening experiences, even though some of them were the result of my own stupidity or wandering away from Him. He’s always been faithful and true to me, and I feel like most of my adult life has been a testimony to His mercy and forgiveness. When I read through the Old Testament, especially books like Isaiah, I can really relate to the beautiful story of the Lord’s relationship with Israel. No matter how many times His people backslid, after disciplining them, He would always take them back. His promises to them are tender, passionate, and eternal, and they show the character of a God whose love is so unfathomably deep, wide, and high, that it will take us all of eternity to finally (and happily!) understand. Second, I have to be honest and admit that, because I’m human and my emotions can impact my beliefs, if I had a choice, I would choose pre-tribulation rapture over post, because I’m not a masochist. You said “I don’t want to go through such a horrible time” and neither do I. There was a famous military hero, I think, who told his men that if they said they weren’t scared on the battlefield they were either lying or dead. But there’s more than just my emotions that mold my belief. I do try (but don’t always succeed) to apply the truth of God’s Word, to the best of my ability as I understand it. So all the scriptures for the pre-tribulation view make the most “sense” to me from a scripturally logistic/logical point of view, based upon the fact that God has a real sense of order (as opposed to chaos) in everything He does. From my perspective, the Rapture, Tribulation, Second Coming/Millennial Kingdom all happen in that order. Believing that being taken up in the Rapture just before the Second Coming when Jesus comes back to earth, defeats the antichrist and sets up His kingdom in Jerusalem, would give me a giddy feeling, like being on a bungee cord. Wheeee, here we go up – wheeee here we go back down! That may sound silly but I just couldn’t think of any other way to describe it. Also, getting back to the truth of God’s Word, I see from the Bible that God didn’t allow Lot and his family or Noah and his family to suffer his wrath. But He has allowed His people – Old Testament and New Testament saints – to experience persecution. Although I believe in pre-tribulation, I’m not sure if the church in the U.S. won’t be going through some persecution (maybe even severe) before the Rapture. You have a strong faith, Rachel, I can see that. My prayer is that whatever the timing of the Rapture, or if there’s persecution coming, I’ll be strong too, and not deny my Lord.

        Liked by 1 person

      13. The idea that real Christians won’t suffer persecution is unbiblical and smacks of the “prosperity gospel.”
        A right relationship with Jesus guarantees you physical health, an attractive spouse and kids, and a nice home in suburbia in middle class comfort. Then you’ll get transported straight from your new sofa to Heaven before the bad stuff goes from your wide screen TV set to your neighborhood.
        If you ever perused the Left Behind books, you’ll find this mindset. A number of Scofielders assured me that
        1. Tithing would make me rich. I do it but it does not.
        2. Staying chaste is a guarantee of a perfect marriage partner, happy marriage, and happy, healthy Gerber babies. Nope.
        Disabled, alone and childless in poverty. Pushing fifty. Been a Christian all my life and still am. But bad stuff happens. Even to the faithful. The Bible does not say otherwise, and I can’t blame God for what He never promised.

        Liked by 1 person

      15. Rela October 29, 2022 at 4:16 pm

        Hello Rela

        While you’re at it you might like to address the tone set by ‘Jesus is coming’, in the comment I was responding to, which begins by saying

        “The difference between “pre-tribbers” and “post-tribbers” (or pre-wrath) is becoming glaringly more obvious with each post.
        According to the comments here, believers in a Pre-Tribulation rapture trust in Christ alone for salvation.
        Those of your persuasion trust in Christ and also their own works for salvation.”

        This is a blatant lie and one of many made by ”Jesus is coming’

        The truth is that those of my persuasion believe that salvation is by grace and not by works of the law. Works are the result of salvation and are not the means to obtain it.

        I was chosen in Christ from before the foundation of the world. So even my faith is a gift from God. So, my salvation is completely the work of God and nothing of myself lest I should boast.

        But the commenter has this belief that people like me are trying to earn our way into heaven by becoming martyrs. So, before correcting my tone perhaps you should have shown due diligence by addressing the tone of the person I was responding to.

        YOU SAY
        We each do the best we can to interpret the scripture with the help of the Holy Spirit.

        I SAY
        Sadly, that is not the case with many pretribbers. Instead they rely on false teachers and are too lazy to knuckle down and read the bible properly.

        It’s obvious when they repeat the same jaded misinterpreted verses of the bible that they have not even bothered to sturdy the full chapter which contains the said verse.

        YOU SAY
        A view that differs from yours is not a lie and a perversion.

        I SAY

        It is, when it contradicts the clear teaching of Christ and his apostles, in which case it must be challenged. I’ve gone into great detail to help you and others understand the scriptures.

        But it seems that you are not interested. You would prefer to criticise the tone in my comment and to join in with the other commentor and criticize me for using the words “YOU SAY” and “I SAY”

        So can I expect you to be fair and see you criticize ‘Jesus is coming’ for his tone when he says, “Those of your persuasion trust in Christ and also their own works for salvation.” ?

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      16. Anthony, yes, there are others on here who are not just putting forth an argument, but castigating others. I just happened to choose you because yours was the comment I was reading at the moment. Sorry if you became the “stand-in” for the others.

        Liked by 1 person

      18. Anthony, Sorry if you felt like ganged up on on you – we all love you. I thought I’d share some verses with you that are healing for me.

        Psalm 139:13-16
        For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

        Isaiah 43:1
        I have called you by your name; you are mine.

        John 8:36
        Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

        Romans 5:8
        But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

        Romans 8:38-39
        For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

        2 Corinthians 3:17
        Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

        1 John 4:9
        By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.

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  20. It has been said that given the population density of Hong Kong, for example, all the people in the world could be stuffed into the five boroughs of New York City. So there. What we need on this Earth isn’t fewer people. We just need fewer liberals telling the rest of us how to live.

    Liked by 1 person

  21. This is just a sign the end times are hear. Satan’s time is short so watch very closely the things aligned with that.

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  23. Leo—it isn’t Russia that’s drawing the West into WWIII in the Ukraine. It’s the West specifically the Neoliberals and neocons of the US that has been doing this for the last 30 years. These idiots have openly said they want to destroy Russia utterly and take its resources. How is Russia to interpret that?? All you have to do is look at a NATO map of alliances to see who is surrounding whom. This is the Cuban missile crisis in reverse. If you were Russian, how would you react??

    There is a very Nazified ambition on the part of the West and there are plenty of Banderite Nazis in the Ukraine who are implementing this policy. Remember Hitler had that policy but failed and we are carrying it out anew. Biden and his family the Clintons, Obama, Lindsey Graham (before him McCain) all were engineering the color revolution in 2014 which is when the current conflict began in earnest. Putin did not threaten nuclear war (not directly) but the psychos running the US certainly have. Eager and slavering for it even.

    We in the West have appropriated much of the Nazi ideology and its foreign policy ambitions. The Nazi target of Russia has not changed in 80 years. I regret very much that the US is playing such a dastardly role in propelling the world into a major war. It cannot come out well for anyone. It’s our own irresponsible and insane administration that I fear, not Russia.

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    1. Kayjae I’ve heard everything you say in your argument and then some. I’ve studied this from both angles. And I’m not saying you are wrong about NATO. It’s very evil. But I believe both sides want war. We are witnessing a battle over who gets to control the new world order. Each has a very different view of what that order should look like and each has grown very intolerant of the opposing view. When it’s over one side will be neutralized going forward and then I think we will see the antichrist kingdom blossom. It’s all in God’s plan and God’s timing.

      Liked by 3 people

      1. Leo—I do not believe Putin wanted war. He has been hotly criticized in his country for not acting sooner and waging war too softly against the Ukraine. 20 years ago he asked to join NATO and wanted Russia to be a part of Europe not clued from it. It was the US and our puppet the EU that rejected Russia and then began our campaign against it.

        The depopulation , dechristianization and constant war policies have been coming from the West for decades. We impose this on the world. Why is this ignored?? Why are we not held responsible?? I see that we’ve become the successors or Hitler.

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  24. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is Biblical:
    1 Corinthians 15:51-58
    1 Corinthians 15: 20-23
    1 Corinthians 15: 35-50
    1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18
    1 Thessalonians 5: 1-11
    1 Thessalonians 1- l0
    2 Thessalonians 2: 1-10
    Romans 8: 11, 8: 18-23
    Philippians 3: 20-21
    Titus 2: 13
    Revelation 3: 10-11
    Revelation 4: 1-4
    Revelation 5: 5-10
    Revelation 7: 9-17
    Revelation 12: 1-5, 12
    Psalms 27: 5-6
    Isaiah 26: 19-21
    Isaiah 57: 1-2
    Isaiah 66: 5-9
    Zephaniah 2: 1-3
    Luke 21: 28
    John 14: 1-3
    God loves us and He is coming for us!

    Liked by 1 person

      1. I really appreciate your articles, so thank you for your hard work, Leo.
        Perhaps you do not understand how the verses are Pre-Trib because you are not rightly dividing? My perspective is from that of Dispensationalism. The Time of Jacob’s Trouble is a time not for the Church or believers, but to purify and redeem Israel and punish a Christ-rejecting world. That’s why it’s called Jacob’s Trouble and why the Rapture is called our Blessed Hope!!
        For example, some verses I posted show by the time the seals are opened by Jesus in Revelation 5, the Church is already called up and caught up in Revelation 4. That’s evidence for a Pre-Trib Harpazo.
        It doesn’t make believers “soft” to believe that our Savior will be come to take us—His Body—out of the world. By just the first seals, 2 billion people will be dead! Only a remnant will survive the 7-year Tribulation, and that is because the Lord shortens those days; otherwise no one would survive. No amount of prepping or toughness can prepare anyone for the death and destruction that is coming. Look up! The Rapture is intended to be our comfort and our blessed hope in these last days.

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      2. I agree wholeheartedly—we need to resist, resist, resist the evil in this world.
        But resist not the Holy Spirit. I used to think that post or pre-Trib stances were not a salvation issue. But today in this comment section I realize it is.
        Many comments from the post or pre-wrath position are full of self-righteousness. Either Christ died for our sins because he loves us, and He will Rapture us, or we need to work out our own salvation and prove ourselves through martyrdom in the tribulation. That denies the power of Christ’s sacrifice! There is no double salvation—of our own working plus that of Christ’s. That work was Singularly Finished on the cross, once and for all! Only His perfect blood and sinless life can atone for our sins.
        Those who reject that truth really will have to work out their own salvation by beheading in the Tribulation. It truly is a faith issue, but there is still time to trust the Lord!
        Jan Markell led me here. With much love and respect, please have an open heart to the truth of God’s love for us and the good news of salvation. I understand that the Church should be prepared for and persevere through trials and tribulation and persecution, but that is not THE Tribulation. We are spared from that hour of trial in Revelation 3: 10.

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      3. JesusIsComing says:
        October 26, 2022 at 4:57 pm

        Revelation 3:10— Because you have kept My word about patient endurance, I will keep you (i.e. nurtured in the wilderness) from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. 12:13 —And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring (i.e. wise virgins in Christ’s Bride), on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

        Obediently take up your daily cross and joyfully suffer tribulation in Christ’s footsteps:

        Luke 9:23 “The Son of Man must suffer many things,” He said. “He must be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.” Then Jesus said to all of them, “If anyone wants to come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow Me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.…Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, joyfully take up your cross of tribulation and daily work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who is faithfully working in you, causing you both to will and to work out his predestined good pleasure.

        Liked by 1 person

      4. Scripture does not mention Rapture specifically, but it does point to it, especially this verse:

        2 Thessalonians 2:7-8
        7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

        I’ve heard dozens of preaching on who the restrainer is but know one really knows. If it is the Holy Spirit, then it is a pre-trib rapture because the Holy Spirit would never leave us.

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      5. Titus 2:13

        “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;”

        There is no mention of a pretribulation rapture in this verse. The blessed hope is referring to what Paul mentions at the beginning of his letter, which is the hope of eternal life.

        “1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

        2In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;”

        What frustrates me about pretribbers is that they accept false doctrine without checking what they are being told. They quote verses out of context on a regular basis because they have not bothered to study the bible for themselves.

        I suggest that you do a proper analysis of the verses you’ve mentioned by reading them in context.

        I’ve posted other comments at the bottom of the page which you might find helpful.

        Liked by 1 person

      6. @ Russ D October 27, 2022 at 10:22 am

        Hello Russ
        At the beginning of the 2nd Thessalonians 2 Paul is actually refuting a false pretribulation rapture doctrine which had been circulated in the Church. He says that the coming of Christ and the rapture cannot happen except the man of sin be revealed beforehand.
        So, you cannot just take two verses out of context and use them to say the opposite to what Paul has said at the beginning of the chapter.

        Liked by 1 person

      7. JesusIsComing, self-righteousness is not exclusive to either side. Doing the Master’s will till He returns matters more than accurately predicting which door He will enter through.
        I agree with your moniker. Jesus is coming again.

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      8. Hello Rachel, having a proper understanding of Christ’s return and the rapture is very important in order to expose the workings of Satan with regard to the revealing of the man of sin.
        The Christian church is failing to do this. Meanwhile pope Fracis and other religious leaders are setting the stage for the man of sin’s revealing.

        But many Christians don’t care because they’ve been conned into believing that it won’t affect them.

        As you brilliantly put it …

        “Then you’ll get transported straight from your new sofa to Heaven before the bad stuff goes from your wide screen TV set to your neighborhood.”

        Our testimony is very important we are supposed to be true witnesses for God’s truth.

        Liked by 1 person

    2. No person will be “energized” into Heaven in these corrupted earthly bodies. And it’s The Bride at the very end will Be Changed*, then ascend with Christ for the Wedding Banquet Supper and then return with Christ back to earth to Rule with Him for a Thousand years.
      No Christian (Or Anyone) will be “Beamed-Up” and sit on a nice white cloud forever n ever.
      Jesus Himself said to a few right after He was resurrected “Touch me not for I have not yet ascended into Heaven”…… About 8 days later they all met and Doubting Thomas was allowed to touch Jesus.
      Getting a New Spiritual/Physical body and He was Restoring His Nazarite Vow.

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      1. The wedding (marriage ceremony) takes place in Heaven–that’s why the Bridegroom is building the wedding chamber (chadar) in The Father House (John 14:1-3 “In my Father’s House are many mansions, etc…” where the marriage is consumated. That phrase is actually what a Jewish bridegroom traditionally said at his bethrothal to the future bride. Then the Jewish bridegroom would say, “I will come again to take you unto myself.” And that’s what Jesus said. And he would also say, “Only my Father knows the day and the hour, because the father of the groom was the one who determined when the bridal chamber was ready (not the groom). Jesus was repeating that bridal language at the last Passover because he knew his disciples would understand. So Jesus comes to harpazo his Bride to Heaven for the wedding ceremony. After the wedding and the honeymoon in Heaven, the Bridegroom and Bride return together to the earth (“with ALL his saints”) for the marriage feast. They are together when Jesus defeats the AntiChrist and his armies. (a wedding doesn’t take place at Armageddon.) Following that, the wedding banquet or marriage feast of the Lamb takes place on earth as it is the fulfillment of Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles) which inaugurates the Messianic Kingdom on earth.

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      2. @ Anthony William

        Defending The Pre-trib Rapture

        Defending The Pre-trib Rapture

        “Confusion over Confusion: 2 Thes 2:1-6
        Because Paul, in 2 Thessalonians, said the Antichrist would be revealed before the Day of the Christ, post and pre-wrath adherents frequently try to cite this passage as one that refutes the pre-trib rapture.

        To quell the Thessalonian’s misunderstanding that they had somehow entered the tribulation, Paul told them the Antichrist must first be revealed. By telling them they had no reason to panic, Paul is clearly disputing the idea that the Thessalonians could someday find themselves facing the tribulation hour.

        I’m constantly being irked by Post-trib and pre-wrath folks’ consistent, or better yet deliberate, failure to accept the simple fact that the pre-trib doctrine calls for a rapture and a second coming. Because they only glean the prophetic word for one event–the second coming–they’re unable to recognize pre-trib rapture passages.

        Of course, when you fuse the two advents together, you end up with verses that appear to contradict each other: 1 Thessalonians 5:9, “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,” and Revelation 13:7, “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.””

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      3. It’s true that God Will protect His people (The Bride , Elect) I just don’t believe anyone will be flying or floating up into heaven.
        John 17:15 – King James Bible
        John 17:15 KJV: I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.”
        Psalm 91 clearly states that God (And I do frequently use His actual Name-YAHWEH) He will protect His people but does not lift them up into Heaven. Also, a lot of God’s Wrath is through the devil. He uses Satan to punish us. (For We All have sinned)… but nearer the end God will squash satan and his minions like a stepped on bug and cast them into hell.
        At the very end following Jesus (Yahshua) does take His Bride up into Heaven for a Wedding Ceremony and Banquet. After the Bride receives their Born from Above’ Immortal bodies. Nobody is allowed into Heaven in these defiled corrupted human bodies. Then after the Wedding Banquet in Heaven The Bride will Return to Earth with Jesus (Yahshua) to rule ans rein for a Thousand years. Rule and Rein over Who?…. There’s some that don’t quite succeed to perfection, but God don’t cast them to hell for ever n ever n ever. Only God knows the True hearts of man.
        (satan and his gang have had a time to repent but haven’t)

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      4. Pre-trib folks’ consistent, or better yet deliberate, failure to accept the simple fact that the pre-wrath doctrine calls for the wise virgins in Christ’s Bride to be ‘raptured’ upon the two wings of a great eagle into the socially un-secured ‘wilderness’. Foolish virgins in Christ’s Bride have not been given a new wineskin heart (Ezekiel 36:26-) with ears to hear the voice of the Bridegroom’s pre-wrath commandment in Revelation 18:4, therefore they perish within Socialism’s abominable Security System!

        Woe, woe, woe to the great Reset of the Marxist Beast’s global village/city, the mighty technocratic city of neo-Babylon! For in a single hour your judgment has come. Then ten virgins in Christ’s Bride heard another voice from heaven say: “Come out of her, My people, so that you will not share in her sins or contract any of her plagues. For her sins are piled up to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.” Revelation 18:1-8

        In obedience to Christ’s commandment, the Bride’s wise virgins fled out from the technocratic Security System of the Beast’s Socialistically secured global village/city, entering the wilderness, where God had prepared a place for her to be nourished for 1,260 days. The Bride of Christ’s wise virgins were given two wings of a great eagle to be ‘raptured’ from the presence of the serpent to her place in the wilderness, where she was nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. Revelation 12:6-14

        “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take along any extra oil. But the wise ones took oil in flasks along with their lamps. When the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and fell asleep. At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’ Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’ ‘No,’ said the wise ones, ‘or there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, (since your souls are digitally marked with the Beast’s SS# that enables you to buy and sell in the global village’s cashless e-commerce) go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’ But while they were on their way to buy it, the bridegroom arrived. Those who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet, and the door was shut. Later the other virgins arrived and said, ‘Lord, lord, open the door for us!’ But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I do not know you.’ Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour (when the Lord closes the door of Noah’s ark in the wilderness).” Matthew 25:1-

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      5. I also want to add that I do NOT believe there’s a Singular Man who is the anti-Christ. If there comes One actual Man who is the antiChrist, well, then, the problem ought to be pretty easy to take out?…. There’s many Anti-Christ Men (And Women) and look at the high n mighty men (Elite) such as Gates, Soros, Fauci, Schwab, Hararri…Zebinskwi, etc…. Now we have these incoming Beast-Religions as Chrislam and New Governments as Global Reset and NWO and these Wicked men that are behind these wicked Systems. (Or call it Religions and Governments) There’s a group of Anti-Christ men (and Women) rising up now. But the good news is they aren’t going to succeed.

        Liked by 1 person

      6. @ Russ D October 28, 2022 at 11:25 am

        Hello Russ
        There are different opinions as to what caused the Thessalonians to believe that the day of the Lord was at hand, but none of these views can be proven. So. let’s stick to the bible and see what Paul has to say in his second letter to the Thessalonians.
        In order to understand 2nd Thessalonians 2 we have to read it in it’s proper context. To do this we have to read the beginning of the letter in chapter one.

        In chapter one Paul recognises the tribulation which the Thessalonians are going through. He says that God will avenge them and give them rest along with himself and all the other saints when Christ comes in glory.

        Paul is not referring to a pretribulation rapture; He is referring to the second coming/the day of Christ which is when all the saints will be raptured.

        7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

        8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

        9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

        10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

        This is the rapture, and it happens on the day of the lord which happens AFTER the great tribulation.

        This sets the narrative for what Paul says in Chapter two.

        In chapter two, Paul continues to talk about the rapture and saying that it will happen on the day of Christ. But he says that day will not happen until AFTER the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin who will come with “power and signs and lying wonders,”

        Paul spends much of this chapter creating a very clear picture of the events which will precede the rapture in an effort to prevent any father confusion in the future.

        “1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

        2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

        3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

        4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

        5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

        6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

        7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

        8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

        9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,”

        At no point does Paul offer any hope for a pretribulation rapture or an imminent end to their tribulation. In fact, he dispels any such notion.
        There is no mention of a separate pretribulation rapture here or anywhere else in the bible. The pretribulation rapture is con which relies on taking bible verses out of context in an effort to make them fit this false notion.

        Liked by 1 person

      7. Kgazin, the Beast System is made up of many. The heads and horns of the symbolic monster in Rev. 6 stand for different individuals with power.
        But my dad and I were discussing the matter and he thinks there is also a special individual at the center responsible for the number of the mark used for currency. “The number of A MAN.”
        But other translations say, “Humanity’s number.”
        There is one man behind the new global cryptocurrency the technocrats are setting up. He also designed a new kind of “vaccine” people can give themselves to leave a little patch on the hand or forehead according to his speech to world leaders. The international patent number his company took out on it? “WO2020.060606.”
        Bur he’s a greasy, awkward, ugly computer nerd. And Christians have a preconceived notion that the Beast must be handsome, charming and charismatic because of all the pop subculture products about the “End Times” they’ve been consuming since the 70’s.

        Liked by 1 person

      8. Billy goats is one of the many men (or whatever he is) he has a patent on one of the vaccines and it ends with 666 in it.
        Also, actuality Mankind’s number is 6.
        I really believe “The AntiChrist” is a System, Beast-System or Beast-government and actually we’ve had several, But Nothing compares to what is rapidly coming. Also I will say this-Ol Billy goats is sure rising up and he has a patent on one of the vax that ends in 666 or has it in the patent #. Billy goats is a major financier of WHO and other companies. I believe ol satan and his goons will try and actually put ONE MAN out and up on top of things, for appearance anyhow

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    3. Yes, John Snapchat, we should be obedient. But we are not called to death to prove our salvation in this current dispensation! It is faith alone as in Ephesians 2:8-10, which ties into your Philippians verse about “working in His predestined good pleasure.”
      After the rapture, however, it will likely be necessary—for those who rejected the grace of God and His beloved Son’s finished work on the cross. That is if they have survived the utter destruction that is coming. It will no longer be the Age of Grace, but a different dispensation. Believe now in the finished work of Jesus! He came to give us life, and life abundantly. He so loves the world He—the Lord Himself—paid our sin debt in full. Our works are but filthy “menstruation” rags in comparison!
      That is why Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, came down to earth—only his blood is perfect, and only his life and works are spotless. We cannot earn our own salvation. That is not the gospel of Grace! That is another gospel, and like Paul, our apostle for this Age of Grace said in Galatians 1:8-9, let the person preaching a gospel contrary to the gospel of Grace of Jesus Christ be anathema!
      The example you gave about the woman fleeing is also one of the examples I gave in the list of scripture verses that prove a pre-Trib rapture. The woman is Israel. Her child is Christ, who was “caught up” before the dragon could devour it. We believers are the Body of Christ as described in Ephesians, Romans, Corinthians, and Colossians. We will be caught up with Christ in the Harpazo! Look up! He is our Redeemer! He loves us! And He will not leave us behind in the Tribulation to suffer or pay for our sins or prove ourselves worthy or strong. That is not Biblical.

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      1. The woman fleeing into the Socially un-Secured ‘wilderness’ is Christ’s Bride—the Commonwealth of Israel. Her child is the Messianic Lamb of God, who was “caught up” to God and to His throne.

        Ephesians 2:11Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles in the flesh and called uncircumcised by the so-called circumcision (that done in the body by human hands)— remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the Commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus, you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.…Galatians 3:28 For all of you wise virgins in Christ’s Bride who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed in the Commonwealth of Israel and heirs according to the promise.…

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      2. Hello again john shaphat!
        You posted some beautiful verses but the words are CHANGED:
        The KJV translation for both the Ephesians 2 and Galatians 3 verses are both different since they don’t include the extra words you inserted, like “wise virgins” or “so-called circumcision” or “Commonwealth of Israel.”
        I don’t know if you are using a strange translation or inserted those words on your own.
        I don’t quite understand your position, but we seem to agree that the woman is Israel and the child is Christ, in the least. I love both the Ephesians and Galatians verses because they prove that it is by the blood of Christ that we are reconciled to God our Father and can stand on hope in Him and promise in Him. Since we are one in Christ Jesus and heirs, we are redeemed from the law and received as the adoption of sons. (Galatians 4:5) We don’t need to work for our salvation as Paul describes in Galatians 4:9.
        My original posts were in support of a Pre-Trib Rapture of the Body of Christ. We believers are one body with Christ as the head.
        I posted that because so many comments that are against a Pre-Trib Rapture are self-focused and centered on salvation through one’s works plus Christ. I want to show salvation is in Christ through faith alone and is Christ-centered on the work He finished on the cross and proved through His resurrection–His Sacrifice was perfect! There is a big difference! It’s important because faith in the first, of salvation in Christ plus one’s own works, is not the Gospel of Grace and could land people in the very Tribulation they so greatly feel the need to prepare for and prove themselves worthy in.

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  25. WE MUST rescue our children!
    The Left understands where the Culture War frontline is located!
    The battle front is for the hearts and minds of our children.
    Get them out of government schools, NOW!

    Liked by 2 people

  26. Thank you brother Leo. You are tireless in keeping us informed connecting the dots for us all.
    I agree – no pre-trib rapture. Rev.12:11 “and they overcame him ( the accuser of the brethren ) by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. ”
    I fully expect to go through the tribulation.We must train ourselves to fight with the Blood and all that it has done for us, continually testifying with our words all that it has accomplished. Only then will we overcome regardless of whether we live or die in the attempt.

    Liked by 3 people

  27. I can’t believe any Christian took the Covid Clot shots. Christians are NOT listening to the Holy Spirit but walking in the fear of man and not in the Power of God!!

    Stay away from vaccines…………ALL OF THEM!!!

    “The medical authorities keep lying. Vaccination has been an assault on the immune system. It actually causes a lot of illnesses. We are actually changing our genetic code through vaccination…..100 years from now we will know that the biggest crime against humanity was vaccines.”

    -Dr Guylaine Lanctor author of “The Medical Mafia”

    “Much of what you have been led to believe about immunization simply isn’t true. If I were to follow my deeper convictions, I would urge you to reject all inoculations for your child….There in convincing scientific evidence that mass inoculations can be credited with eliminating any childhood disease”

    -Dr Robert Mendelsohn author of “Confessions of a Medical Heretic”

    “These chronic diseases, including hay fever, asthma, cancer, and AIDS, are the result of wrong interventions upon the organism by conventional medicine…..the immune systems of the Western population, through strong chemical drugs and repeated vaccinations, have broken down…..medicine, instead of curing diseases, is actually the cause of the degeneration of the human race”

    -Dr Juan Manuel Martinez Mendez writing in the Aug/Sept 2004 Townsend Letter

    The Truth About Vaccinations – History and Hoax
    https://thetruthaboutvaccines.com/the-truth-about-vaccinations/

    Vaccine Ingredients and Vaccine Secrets
    https://healthwyze.org/reports/60-vaccine-secrets

    The Poisoned Needle – Eleanor McBean:
    spingolaspeaks.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/the-poisoned-needle.pdf

    VAXXED VS. UNVAXXED: A STUDY FINALLY PROVES UNVACCINATED CHILDREN ARE HEALTHIER
    https://thefamilythathealstogether.com/vaxxed-vs-unvaxxed-are-unvaccinated-children-healthier-than-those-who-are-vaccinated/

    Dr. Andrew Moulden: All Vaccines Cause Ischemia (Impaired Blood Flow) Which Blocks Oxygen Delivery Leading to Chronic Disease
    https://educate-yourself.org/cn/All-Vaccines-Cause-Ischemia-(Impaired-Blood-Flow)-Which-Blocks-Oxygen-Delivery22jul15.shtml#top

    https://thevaccinereaction.org/

    https://www.vaccinesandchristianity.org/

    https://odysee.com/@drsuzanneh:f

    Liked by 1 person

    1. I think a lot of Christians took the vaccine because of Romans 13, where it says to be subject to governing authorities. However, taken in context this chapter has to do with maintaining law and order. There’s nothing in this chapter that says people must be obedient to unreasonable and tyrannical restrictions from the government.

      Liked by 1 person

      2. Well sais John

        Acts 5

        “27And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them,

        28Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man’s blood upon us.

        29Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.”

        Liked by 1 person

      3. That is a distortion of scripture. If the government tells you to take cyanide are you going to take it?

        Again, most Christians are listening to man and NOT God. Just look at the lie called Covid. This bogus virus has EXPOSED the church and it’s pastors. It has shown me the the majority of pastors are MORE CONCERNED about their jobs as a Pastor, then preaching the Word of God………..IT IS QUITE OBVIOUS!

        Man says you will forsake assembling together
        The Word of God says you will NOT forsake assembling together (Hebrews 10:25)

        Man say we are to fear this virus and wear masks
        The Word of God says I have not given you a Spirit of Fear (2 Tim 1:7)
        And greater is He who is in us than he who is in the world (1 John 4:4)

        Man says this virus can kill you
        The Word of God says “No weapon formed against you shall prosper” (Isa 54:17)
        Man says we are to social distance
        The Word of God says “we are to lay hands on the sick and they shall recover” (Mark 16:18)

        If your Church followed the government protocol of closing his church, wearing masks and social distancing then your Pastor is a LIAR and COWARD and NOT following the Word of God………PERIOD!

        And don’t tell me your Pastor is obeying the government IAW Romans 13:1-7, because that is a LIE. When Man’s laws or ways go against the Word of God we are NOT to obey them and in the case of this bogus virus, man laws ARE violating the Word of God.

        Liked by 4 people

      5. Russ D, it amazes me how so many Christians immediately went to Caesar Nero begging to be saved in this life.
        In defense of many, they believed in asymptomatic contagion and feared infecting someone vulnerable rather than their own deaths. But I watched how abjectly terrified many self identifying Christians were of their bodies dying and wondered what good their faith was. It seemed to have no practical value in the face of sickness. The early Christians nursed plague victims and lepers. But in the 21st century, because Caesar orders it and they automatically look to him for life, they act fearfully and shun alleged “plague carriers” in exactly the same way as the lost.

        Liked by 1 person

    2. Good comment; I agree with that. I have read many books and articles critical of vaccination, including those by Eleanor McBean and others such as Charles M. Higgins, Annie Riley Hale, Dr. J.M. Peebels, etc. I have one question about Eleanor McBean. I translated her book “Vaccination condemned by all competent doctors – Book 1 into German for myself. Has Book 2 ever been published; a fairly detailed preview of Book 2 can be found at the end of Book 1.
      I would be pleased about an answer -thank you

      Like

    3. Lots of Christians urge others to get “help” from psychiatrists. I even saw what could be construed as a PR promotion for a local mental health center done by a nurse and therapist from the pulpit of a mega church I visited with a friend.
      There’s money in pharmaceuticals. Those who work for it, or medicine make for well-heeled members who can contribute greatly to churches. They also dress expensively and own large homes in gated communities where they can hold lavish parties with other members. “Doing life together.
      Those drugs disable and lead to early graves. They correct nothing in the brain, despite the lies you hear everywhere. The lies that nurse and therapist told us that morning.
      The drugs also alter the human mind just like the kind sold on the street, making it harder to lead a godly, sober life. But nobody in the church seems to know because they don’t care.

      Liked by 1 person

  28. The devil persecutes Christ followers right from the garden, the tribulation is God pouring out His wrath on the sons of disobedience, not on the sons of obedience (born again believers) the Bible is explicitly clear that those who know Him are not destined to wrath

    Liked by 1 person

    1. I Thessalonians says that }God has not destined us for wrath. It is my understanding thst God’s wrath will be poured out the second hslhnofbthe a Tribulation. Therefore the rapture would have to place sometime before then. We also read in In I Thessalonians. 4:17-28 to “comfort one another with these words.” What words? Those of the preceding context of verses of verses 15-17.

      Like

      1. Hello John when I read the bible I see a distinction and a separaton between the tribulation and the ‘day of wrath’.

        I Revelation we see that when the fifth seal is opened the tribulation saints told that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

        9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

        10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

        11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

        When the sixth seal is opened we see the heavenly events which correlate with the coming of Christ and the rapture of his elect as set out by Christ in Mathew 24:20-31 which happens AFTER the great tribulation.

        Notice in verse 17 below, the announcement that ” the great day of his wrath is come” So, God’s wrath is not poured out on the church but the church will go through the tribulation.

        “12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

        13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

        14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

        15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

        16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

        17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

        TRIBULATION, RAPTURE, WRATH.

        Liked by 1 person

  29. Sorry to see some commenters prefer to nitpik rather than absorb the truth of your conclusions. I’m proud to call you a fellow son of Georgia. I am standing beside you, not behind you.

    Liked by 1 person

  30. I just wanted to add this verse from The Holy Bible in which Jesus Himself Not wishing His people being removed out of this earth.-
    King James Bible
    “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.”
    John 17:15

    Liked by 2 people

  31. 1. Pre-trib rapture is merely a big cope by those who dare not contemplate a life here on earth that will be characterized by last day events. You will notice that it’s mainly the “soft Christian nations” that tend to believe in this. I am not being argumentative, only stating what seems certain from the Scriptures and digging into why folks believe in it.

    2. I really liked your civil disobedience “refuse list” as it made me think about the many ways we can take positive action in standing up for what we believe.

    3. I find that it’s not so much the democrats in my neighborhood that a wedge has been driven between them and me, but between me and members of my own family, even of the same political persuasion. “Republicans” in my family who took multiple covid “vaccines” have been the most hostile towards me, not so much the local dem neighbors who took it but now regret it.

    Liked by 4 people

    1. Interesting comment Ron. Thanks for sharing your “boots on the ground” real-life experience. I have had a similar experience just this week with a conservative Republican fellow alt-media journalist who took the jab and now accuses me of falling for a communist plot for refusing to take it.

      Liked by 3 people

  32. We ‘Christian Pilgrims’ (i.e. in John Bunyan’s Pilgrim’s Progress) have obeyed Christ’s Revelation 18:4 commandment by fleeing out of the Great Reset of Sodom’s Socialistically Secured ‘City of Destruction’ (aka the Marxist Beast’s global slave state). No politician, police force, or military unit of Socialism’s abominable Security System will ride to our rescue. We wise virgins in Christ’s holy Bride defeat them through prayerfully taking up our cross and networking together in obedience to Christ’s gospel commandment. We must become the cross-bearing, martyred refusniks of the 21st century. Your PC Democratic ‘Xian” neighbor, who refuses to take up their martyr’s cross daily, is your diabolical enemy. Folks in Satan’s Harlot Laodicean democratic Church, who you thought were ‘Xian’ friends, will murderously turn on you overnight because it means taking something you have in order to feed their starving children.

    Like

  33. For all those Pre tribers. I have a question whose going to preach the gospel if we are all gone ? You Pre tribers need to re read the bible us believers are going to go through the tribulation, whether we like it or not we are going to suffer persecution

    Liked by 2 people

    1. Who will preach the Gospel if the church is gone? Read the book of Revelation. There are the two witnesses, the 144,000 (12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel), and the angel.

      Liked by 1 person

    3. 144,000 Jews, 2 witnesses and an angel. Plus those that are left behind and are saved after the rapture [ie. The Tribulation Saints]
      Read Revelation

      Liked by 1 person

    4. In the Gospel of John 1:9, John says that Jesus Christ was the True Light who enlightens every man coming into the world. Every human being who comes into this world is enlightened by Christ, the Light, so that they are without excuse.
      “As I mentioned to you then, I will mention it to you again, the great movement and attempt to motivate Christians to get out and reach the world for Christ is because in Matthew 24 Jesus says that the end cannot come until the whole world is reached. So many take that as something we are supposed to do.
      But again a reminder to you, Revelation Chapter 14, during the tribulation period there will be two witnesses in Jerusalem, but also angels flying in mid heaven, warning people not to take the mark of the beast and to put their faith in God.
      If they do they will be killed because if you refuse the number you cannot participate in the number and you will be beheaded. So these angels in chapter 14 are flying in mid-heaven. We saw threee of them give their announcements with the gospel. So it will not be people in the end who reach the world for Christ, it will angels and the two witnesses in Jerusalem.”
      Pastor Bill Klein

      Like

    5. You ask who is going to preach the Gospel when we are all gone. The 2 Witnesses, The Angel, People who discover too late for the rapture, accept Jesus and witness to marytrdom. That is who.
      Read Revelation.

      Like

    6. God Hath Not Appointed Us to Wrath

      In 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Paul assures us that God has not appointed His people to wrath. This wrath is plainly God’s anger that will be poured out during the tribulation. Pre-trib believers interpret this as meaning that Christians will be removed from the earth. Post-trib believers tell a different story. They describe this as meaning that God will protect Christians during the tribulation and pour this wrath out on the unbelievers only. This idea runs against the statement made in Revelation 13:7, in which the Antichrist is given power to make war with the saints and to overcome them. A post-trib view would make God’s promise of protection from wrath into a lie. In years past, it was possible to think of being protected from the guns and swords of that day. Today, when any major war would involve nuclear and chemical weapons, it’s impossible to expect that same kind of protection. When Nagasaki, Japan was bombed during World War II, the bomb exploded over a Catholic church. Everyone who was in the center of the explosion died–both Christians and non-Christians. The only way to validly interpret God’s promise of protection from wrath is by viewing 1 Thessalonians 5:9 as the bodily removal of the Church from this world.

      What is the Pretribulation Rapture?

      Like

      1. @ Russ D October 29, 2022 at 11:29 am

        Hello Ross

        YOU SAY
        “This wrath is plainly God’s anger that will be poured out during the tribulation.”

        I SAY

        No it’s not. The day of wrath happens on the day of Chrisst AFTER the great tribulation which is when Christ returns and raptures his saints before pouring out his wrath on the unbelievers.

        YOU SAY
        Pre-trib believers interpret this as meaning that Christians will be removed from the earth. Post-trib believers tell a different story. They describe this as meaning that God will protect Christians during the tribulation and pour this wrath out on the unbelievers only.

        i SAY
        Both of these views are wrong.

        YOU SAY
        The only way to validly interpret God’s promise of protection from wrath is by viewing 1 Thessalonians 5:9 as the bodily removal of the Church from this world.

        I SAY
        The only way to validly interpret God’s promise of protection from wrath is by properly defining what the wrath is, and when it happens.

        The wrath is not the tribulation. The tribulation is followed by the coming of Christ which is when he pours out his wrath.

        The bible tells us that the wrath of God is poured out on the day of the Lord 2nd Thessalonians 1.

        The day of wrath is the day of the Lord which happens at the second coming of Jesus Christ.

        The second coming of Christ happens AFTER the great tribulation as stated by Jesus in Mathew 24.

        This correlates with the opening of the sixth seal in Revelation where we the declaration of the day of wrath

        1st Thessalonians 5:9 does NOT mention the tribulation.

        Your pretribulation rapture doctrine is based on wild assumptions and blatant lies. You need to stay away from false teachers and read the bible properly and to stop snatching bible verses out of context.

        Like

      2. Anthony…To quote you: “YOU SAY….I SAY” Yes, we all say what we deeply believe from diligent study. Otherwise we wouldn’t be commenting here.
        The following is not helpful to any believer here:
        “Your pretribulation rapture doctrine is based on wild assumptions and blatant lies. You need to stay away from false teachers and read the bible properly and to stop snatching bible verses out of context.”

        Like

      3. Revelation 12:1- And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman (i.e. the Commonwealth of Israel—Christ’s Bride) clothed in the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and crying out in the pain and agony of giving birth. And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was caught up to God and to His throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place for her to be nourished for 1,260 days (protectively sheltered away from His wrath).

        13And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle to fly from the presence of the serpent to her place in the wilderness, where she was nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. Then from the mouth of the serpent spewed water like a river to overtake the woman and sweep her away in the torrent. But the earth helped the woman and opened its mouth to swallow up the river that had poured from the dragon’s mouth. And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children (i.e. the 5th Seal martyrs), who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

        The Judgment Day of God’s wrath is poured out on unbelievers who reject the Gospel of Christ’s Revelation 18:4 commandment. While the fierce wrath of divine judgment was being poured out and violently rapturing away the Devil’s deluded children of darkness, the Lord’s persecuted children of light who had endured much tribulation, were safely being nurtured within Noah’s wilderness ark. Lot heard the angels’ warning of Christ’s Rev.18:4 commandment and was safely led into the wilderness, while Sodom and Gomorrah were being consumed in God’s fiery wrath.

        The 6th trumpet announces the second woe of God’s wrath that is uttered by the voices of the mighty angel’s seven thunders. When the seven thunders had spoken, I was about to put it in writing. But I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Seal up what the seven thunders have said, and do not write it down.” For Elijah will return and torment the world by pronouncing God’s wrath that was sealed up in the voices of the seven thunders.

        I will empower my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” If anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouths and devours their enemies. In this way, anyone who wants to harm them must be killed. These witnesses have power to shut the sky so that no rain will fall during the days of their prophecy, and power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they wish. Revelation 10-11

        Like

  34. Gates: So you’ve got a thing on the left, CO2, you want to get to zero…
    If carbon dioxide went to zero all the plants on earth would die and all the animals not long behind them.

    Liked by 3 people

  35. Hey Leo, What would be the best way for them to depop a lot of people?…The same way they have been making us sick!…All the disease and illness has escalated a lot over last decade have they not? I don’t see you mention it but It is the number one crime against humanity…No one can do anything if we can’t breathe…They’ve clammed everyone up involved in Geoengineering and Chems are making us gag and there’s nothing we can do?? Why isn’t anyone talking about it? It’s gotten real bad since COVID

    Liked by 1 person

    1. I have suspicion that you are spot on target with your statement Matt but I just don’t have enough facts yet on this. If you have good documentation please send it my way brother.

      Liked by 3 people

      1. Hey Leo, Documentation? I have some pics, but really all you have to do is look up. Do you think that is normal? When I was knee high to a tractor the skies were pure blue and rarely would you see a plane and when you did sometimes it would have a trail that would dissipate in seconds now this stuff expands into clouds and then fabricated overcast I would think that the people in their 20’s think it’s normal cause it’s been there their whole life… My point to this is they (govt) have gone wild, they been spraying stuff w/ No monitoring, when trying to report that we were gagging on chems, EPA website said “Air Quality Good”…In our area. Bold face lies…What was it? We have the right to know. EPA has been shutdown to GeoEngineering No Air Quality testing all lies…It’s not a question of belief or is it? I find out NOAA has a Gag Order on them and so does Natl.Weather Serv…Do you not believe what you see? Is one so naïve they listen to propaganda and lies and not believe what is in their face? Then when your forced to breathe in Chems and it makes you gag and later headaches and lethargic, overall sickly feeling you find out it’s all been shutdown and NO ONE is regulating anything so they have “Carte Blanche to spray what they will. They could spray anything they want and w/ No testing who’s to keep them honest…Please watch this Documentary with professionals in their field speaking out…We all need to Unite against the NumberOne Crime against humanity and the planet…With every breath we take thanx Matt… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rf78rEAJvhY

        Like

      2. blizjam1 October 27, 2022 at 4:14 am
        Maybe your eyes have just gone dimmer as you’ve got older.

        The sky is more polluted now than years ago. We’ll have to ban carbo emissions and….. oops!

        Seriously though. I remember cycling up the mountains and from the mountains we could see the sky over city below was a haze.

        However, I think that global warming is a hoax, but I don’t believe in the widespread of chem trails on the masses. It’s too indiscriminate, in my opinion.

        Like

    2. If those chemtrails were that toxic, wouldn’t we see trees & wildlife dying everywhere? Wouldn’t the lakes be full of poisoned fish? Wouldn’t crops in the fields dry up & die?

      Like

      1. Hello Paule, I personally don’t believe in the chemtrail conspiracy. I think chemtrails would be too indiscriminate and would affect the globalists as well as everybody else.
        That’s why they use the vax and other methods to injure the general population in my opinion.

        Liked by 1 person

      2. They are. I’ve been watching it for years. Trees dying from the inside out. Burn holes in the vegetation. Reduction of birds and wildlife. Massive animal die offs.

        Liked by 2 people

      3. They are, they are squeezing the life out of us through Big Pharma then we die at a younger age. The chems make us sickly most of us go to Doctor, he prescribes so called medicine to treat us then finally die from complications. We do see it everywhere…Truth is covered up so much hopefully you can find a reputable source for data there are a lot of reports of birds, fish, bees, trees, etc. Makes sense if you dump a bunch of chems in the air could cause health and all life problems…You tried to grow a garden lately? I can’t grow what I used to it all died. Please Look at the Documentary…https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rf78rEAJvhY

        Liked by 3 people

  36. Dear gullible,

    That is what the Bible teaches, not someone else it is based on, but their stuff may be based on the Bible, I have not heard of that guy yet but will look into it. Try 2 Thess. 2; 1-12. The apostasy and the AC revealed BEFORE the rapture, the rapture at the end at the return of Jesus. But they twist it to no end….

    Liked by 2 people

  37. There is a pre Tribulation rapture, First if the Church is the Bride of Christ and that’s not a building. You let your Bride be beat up or killed in the Tribulation period. If your one that would your bride to be beaten up, then why would your bride marry you. Jesus Christ said first before he told his disciples of his coming was DO NOT BE Deceived, so whoever your listing to is a wolf in sheep’s clothing and you have not GOD Jesus Christ in you anyways. Enoch, Elijah and Noah’s family and John of Revelation were raptured. So I say you’re wrong and I’m praying you all wakeup and look up for your redemption Draweth Nigh, Maranatha, Metatouto. Jesus is coming soon and very soon. Don’t be left behind because it’s not like a movie written by men. GODS wrath is real and it’s coming

    Like

    1. You’re not making a coherent argument. The bride has been beat up since the very first days of Christianity, starting with the apostles of Christ who were all killed with the exception of John who was exiled to a lonely island. We follow Christ because He is the Son of God and because of His promises of glory in the hereafter, not because He promised us a life of ease here on Earth. In fact He warned us to expect persecution. The world will hate us because it hated Him first, he said. He said to taken up your cross and follow him, implying we will encounter suffering here on Earth. So you have it completely upside down and backwards.

      Liked by 4 people

      3. I was going to tell them the same thing, and you ‘beat’ me to it. The pretrib has blinded most of the church, it is a set up by the enemy for a rude awakening instead. The rapture comes last, at the last trumpet, not the first trumpet. I’m compiling a list of Bible verses to share on this matter later. It is the enemy who has beaten up the Bride since the birth of the church, and the tribulation is no exception. We are seeing the unfolding of the events of Matthew 24. Another elimination move will be martyrdom. And THAT is what is coming to the church in the not too distant future. For that, we can pack our bags. I for one, am honored to die for the Lord if that is our fate.

        Liked by 1 person

      4. Thanks, Leo, for being such a faithful watchman on the wall, your insightful articles, and good, practical advice. And what you said about loving our neighbor is so true – because that’s the second of the two greatest commandments that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 22:40: “On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” Reading all the comments here, I’m wondering if people are confusing having to suffer persecution with having to suffer the wrath of God in the Tribulation. Persecution is the wrath of Satan and the world against the Christian because of Who we serve. The Tribulation is the wrath and judgment of God against a sinful world. When God judged Sodom and Gomorrah, He removed Lot and his family so they wouldn’t suffer His wrath. When He judged the world during the flood, He removed Noah and his family from the effects of the flood so they wouldn’t suffer His wrath. All of God’s people, whether Old Testament saints, New Testament saints, or the coming Tribulation saints have suffered, are suffering or will suffer persecution. We’ve been fortunate so far in this country not to have to face what our brothers and sisters are going through right now in many countries in the Middle East, Asia, Africa and other places around the world. But the way things are spiraling downward here, and the increasing hostility toward Christians in the U.S. leads me to believe that we could go through severe persecution even if the Rapture takes place before the Tribulation. Pastor Andrew Brunson, who was freed by President Trump from a Turkish prison, has said that he believes God allowed him to go through that ordeal in order to try to help American Christians prepare for what he sees as coming persecution. His account of what he experienced for three years is pretty sobering and frightening in many ways. But it’s something the church really needs to come to grips with. He has a series on the Billy Graham website about his experience and how we can prepare ourselves for what’s to come. Thanks again, Leo, for all your hard work in trying to help us prepare for what’s to come.

        Liked by 1 person

      6. What happened to both Noah and Lot (whose days Jesus compared the end to)? They escaped the judgment the Lord sent on the unrighteous. The 7 years are the judgment of God through Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls) and the seals CONTAIN the trumpets and bowls. Said seals are opened by the Lamb. Is Jesus opening the seals of judgment of the scroll on His own body? The very body he made righeous by His own blood and betrothed to Himself?

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      7. If the bride has been beat up since the beginning of Christianity (I agree with that), does that mean they must also be punished by the judgments of God on the unrighteous during the seals (which contain the trumpets and bowls) that are opened by Jesus to punish the unrighteous during the 7 years? Don’t forget that the two witnesses are going to be calling down judgments from Heaven as well. So we have to get punished by both by the world and by God? We, the blood-bought righteous don’t get to escape the judgment on the unrighteous like Lot and Noah did? And Jesus’ main comparisons of that period were to Lot and Noah.

        Like

      8. Rela, God was able to make a distinction between the Hebrew children He was freeing and the Egyptians during the Ten Plagues of Egypt.
        Both Lot and Noah suffered hardships though they were saved. (Except Lot’s wife.)
        God had His people put blood over their doors while still in Egypt, so His angel passed them over.

        Liked by 2 people

      9. Relasays:
        October 26, 2022 at 7:57 pm

        Hello Rela you are right to believe that we escape the wrath of God which will be poured out during the period of the trumpets and bowls.

        If you read Revelation 6 you will see that the day of wrath doesn’t happen until the sixth seal is opened. The day of wrath is specifically mentioned in Revelation 6:17.

        “17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

        If you read the whole chapter, you will notice that the opening of the sixth seal correlates with the second coming of Christ. The second coming of Christ happens immediately after the great tribulation.

        This is when Christ will rapture his saints.

        So, we will go through the great tribulation, but we are spared from God’s wrath.

        Christians have always gone through tribulation and always will until Ghrist returns AFTER the great tribulation.

        It will be like Noah and Lot. We will be raptured on THE VERY SAME DAY that God begins to pour out his wrath on the earth. There will be no delay.

        Like

    2. False all the way around. The church has been persecuted since day one. Not by God, but by the enemy. And it will be NO different during the tribulation period. Jesus promised us persecution. You need to read the Bible. Noah was not raptured, he was preserved during global wrath, as His elect will be. There is no pre trib rapture. It comes at the last trumpet, not the first one. If you are not prepared to lay down your life for Jesus, you will not make it. If you have listened to the wolves instead who tell you “peace and safety,” instead of persecution, you will be lead astray in the time at hand.

      Liked by 2 people

    3. The meaning of a word is determined by common usage. The word ‘rapture’ typically refers to the catching up of the church. The rapture happens when Christ returns AFTER the great tribulation, whereupon he will gather his elect before pouring out his wrath upon the earth.

      The rapture of the church happens only once after the resurrection of the dead in Christ. It is at this time that all of the saints, dead and alive will receive their glorified bodies and will be joined with Christ.

      All the Old Testament and New Testament saints will assume their glorified bodies at the second coming of Jesus Christ when the dead in Christ will be raised, and the living saints raptured and translated to be with Christ in heaven.

      Enoch, Elijah and Noah’s family and John of Revelation did NOT receive glorified bodies. The first to have a glorified body was Jesus Christ. This didn’t happen until he ascended into heaven. That’s why we read in John 7:39 “(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”

      All the Old Testament and New Testament saints will assume their glorified bodies at the second coming of Jesus Christ when the dead in Christ will be raised, and the living saints will be raptured and translated to be with Christ in heaven.

      The period of wrath and the period of the tribulation are two separate events. The tribulation precedes the rapture which is followed by the pouring out of God’s wrath on the unbelievers who remain on the earth.

      It is not like a ‘Left Behind’ films which are based on the false premise of a pretribulation rapture.

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      1. Hello Anthony,
        Thanks for your insightful comment as always , just to clarify , so you believe that God’s wrath is only poured out after the great tribulation . I’ve always understood that is the reason it is called the great tribulation .

        Blessings, Frank

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      2. The period of wrath and the period of tribulation are simultaneous events of suffering experienced by two families that are antithetical to each other— the Devil’s accursed, digitally-marked children of darkness and Elohim’s beloved, cross-bearing children of Light. Noah graciously suffered through much mocking and tribulation while building the ark, and through the pouring out of God’s wrath upon his unbelieving family members. Preceding the rapture of Christ’s wise virgins and two witnesses is great tribulation when the voice of seven thunders is heard announcing the pouring out of the seven golden bowls of God’s wrath upon the Marxist Beast’s Socialistically Secured chattel.

        The Angel of seven thunders calls out the wrath of God that is written on the reverse side (Rev. 5:1) of the Lamb’s unsealed Little Scroll:

        Revelation 10:1 Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven, wrapped in a cloud, with a rainbow over his head, and his face was like the sun, and his legs like pillars of fire. He had a little scroll open in his hand. And he set his right foot on the sea, and his left foot on the land, and called out with a loud voice, like a lion roaring. When he called out, the seven thunders sounded. And when the seven thunders had sounded, I was about to write, but I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Seal up what the seven thunders have said, and do not write it down.”

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      3. What do post-trib people do with I Thessalonians 4:18 that says to “comfort one another with these words?” What words? Those of the preceding verses 15-17, which talk about being caught up to be with the Lord. If one goes through the Trinulation it definitely is not comforting.

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      5. @ Frank M October 26, 2022 at 3:14 pm

        Hello Frank. There is a lot of confusion about this. To answer your question, we must first define what Paul means when he says, “For God hath not appointed us to wrath,” and we must also establish what the wrath is, how it happens and the timing of when this wrath is unleashed. It’s very important that we understand 1st Thessalonians 5 because in this chapter Paul is qualifying what he said in chapter 4:13-17

        So, in 1st Thessalonians 5, we need to ask what “wrath” is Paul referring to and when does happen?
        Well let’s look at the accompanying verses which give this statement its context and explain its meaning.

        1 “But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.”

        In verse 2 Paul specifically identifies “the day of the Lord” which comes as a “thief in the night”

        “2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.”

        The unbelievers will not be prepared because they will not have heeded the warnings of Christ and his apostles with regard to the timing and events which will precede the “day of the Lord.

        “3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

        But Christians will be prepared and will not be taken by surprise They will be going through the great tribulation at this time at the hand of the man of sin and his followers and will be looking for their salvation which will happen at the second coming of Christ.

        “4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.”

        So where can we find more detail about the day of the Lord which will come as thief in the night.”?

        Answer 2nd Peter 3

        “10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
        11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
        12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
        13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
        14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
        15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;”

        Peter’s description correlates with the opening of the sixth seal in Revelation. Let’s look at the opening of the sixth seal in Revelation.

        You will notice in verse 17 that we are told clearly that this is the day of wrath. It is this wrath that is being referred to by Paul and it is this wrath that Christians are spared from

        “12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

        13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

        14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

        15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

        16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

        17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? ”

        Thankfully we Christians will not suffer this wrath because we will be raptured by the angels on the very same day that God’s wrath is unleashed just as Lot was snatched by the angels out of the city of Sodom on the day that God poured out his wrath on that city.

        The events shown in the opening of the sixth seal correlates with Christ’s second coming which happens after the great tribulation as set out in Mat 24:29-31

        29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

        “30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

        31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

        So, our deliverance is after the great tribulation. The coming of Jesus Christ at which time he raptures his saints, marks the end of the great tribulation and initiates the day of wrath.

        The church has always gone through tribulation. We are told that we must through much tribulation enter the kingdom of God.

        I believe that the reason that God subjects his people to tribulation is to test and approve our faith to the glory of Jesus Christ. This world and its tribulations are a testing ground for Christians. So, I believe that the great tribulation will be time of testing for Christians. I believe that it will be a demonic ‘New AGE’ and the unbelievers will be persecuting the Christians. The unbelievers will be unaware of and will have no regard for the coming of Christ because they will be under a great delusion as described by Paul in 2nd Thessalonians 2.

        I hope you find this comment helpful. If you have any questions just let me know.

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      6. Anthony, so I assume you do not believe in the Messianic Kingdom on earth. The entire OT looks forward to the Messianic Kingdom when the earth will be restored to what it was originally intended and be ruled by Messiah, before the New Heaven and New Earth come after his reign here. He didn’t just come to save from sin…He came to reign. He has always reigned in Heaven, but he is not now reigning on earth because of the evil ruler of this world. The whole purpose of His return is to take back the earth from Satan and then populate it again with righteous people, which requires mortal people still in mortal bodies to have children. Not everyone gets an immortal body, which is why all believers cannot be raptured together at the very end of the Tribulation. No believers would be left to repopulate the Messianic Kingdom on earth.

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      7. @ Rena October 26, 2022 at 8:46 pm

        Hello Rena, you have not provided any scriptures which support your opinion. You are approaching the scriptures with the notion of a pretribulation rapture which is not stated in the bible.

        My starting point is based on the fact that Jesus said that he would return immediately AFTER the great tribulation whereupon he will send his angels with a great sound of trumpet to gather his elect.
        This cannot be contradicted. The bible does not mention a pretribulation rapture. Therefore, you have no basis for attributing bible verses to your assumption of a pretribulation rapture. You are taking a false notion to the bible and using it to misinterpret the bible.
        The pretrib notion that there are two groups of Christians where one group suffers the wrath of God and the other group doesn’t, is preposterous and is not based on scripture. On the one hand you are saying that God would not allow Christians to suffer wrath but on the other hand you say that there will be Christians who will go through the wrath of God.

        The pretribbers say that the Holy Spirit will be removed from earth at the rapture. Do you not understand that a person cannot be saved without the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit?
        So, after your pretribulation rapture, where does this new group of Christians come from?? Please answer this question.

        When Jesus returns in the clouds of heaven, he does not set foot on this earth. He stays in heaven with his saints and pours out his wrath on the world. Christians are taken off the earth on the very same day just as it was with Noah when God began pouring out his wrath on the world. Lot also, was removed from Sodom by the angels on the very same day that God poured out his wrath on that city, killing all those unbelievers who remained.

        At the second coming we are raptured and are given new immortal bodies which enable us to be joined to Christ in heaven. Christ and his glorified saints will not return to dwell on this earth. According to Peter we look forward to a new heavens and a new earth.

        2nd Peter 3 “10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

        So, Jesus does not rapture his saints only to come back again and dwell on this earth as you pretribbers wrongly assume. If you read Revelation 7 you will see that after the sixth seal is opened and Christ returns that the tribulation saints are now in HEAVEN before the throne of God serving him day and night IN HIS TEMPLE, not on this earth.
        “14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them”

        When I read Revelation, I see that during the millennial kingdom Christ and his saints remain in heaven and rule from heaven. There is no mention in Revelation of Christ and his saints dwelling on this earth during the millennium.

        Pretribbers search the Old Testament prophecies for anything they can find to support their false notion. But Old Testament prophecies can also be misinterpreted which Paul discovered to his cost after he had persecuted the church while thinking that he was being of service to God.

        Can you recognise the following Old Testament prophecy?
        Is it talking about the millennium?

        “Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;”
        And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.”

        No! it’s NOT talking about the millennium.
        It’s talking about John’s ministry concerning the revealing of Jesus Christ. This is an example of a prophecy which would not be obvious had it not been explained.

        So, I am not prepared to get into wild speculation about a millennial reign of Christ especially if such speculation would cause me to contradict what has been clearly taught by Christ and his apostles.

        Whatever conclusions we might draw from reading Revelation we must be sure that our conclusion’s don’t compromise the integrity of the clear teaching of Christ and his apostles as set out in the gospels and letters.

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      8. Anthony, I also believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, but there have been so many good defenses of both pre- and post- here, (and I respect others’ opinions) that I won’t add another comment on the timing. Just a couple of things, though. First, regarding your response to Rena, if you read 2 Thessalonians 2:7, the statement that “only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way” can easily lead one to believe that, because the Holy Spirit dwells in each born-again believer, once the church is raptured, He’s gone from the earth as well. Since God is omnipresent (“Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?”), others believe it means that the Holy Spirit just steps aside so the “lawless one” will be revealed. I don’t know what the exact Greek translation is for this phrase, and not having that information, the verse is, understandably, tough to interpret. One thing is certain: because the Gospel will be preached during the Tribulation and people will get saved, the Holy Spirit must be present. Plus, the saints will need Him more than ever to stand strong in His power. The second thing is, I do have questions about two of your statements. Regarding “When Jesus returns in the clouds of heaven, he does not set foot on this earth. He stays in heaven with his saints and pours out his wrath on the world,” I’m curious how you interpret Zechariah 14:1-9, especially 3-4: “Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south” and 5: “Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You.” And concerning ” When I read Revelation, I see that during the millennial kingdom Christ and his saints remain in heaven and rule from heaven. There is no mention in Revelation of Christ and his saints dwelling on this earth during the millennium,” how do you interpret Psalm 2:6, Psalm 110:2, Isaiah 2:2-4 9:6-7, and 24:21-23, Jeremiah 3:17, Ezekiel 43:7, Zechariah 2:10-14, 8:2-3, and 14:1-10, Joel 3:14-21, Zephaniah 3: 14-20, and Micah 4:7, to mention a few, and in particular, Revelation 5:9-10: “You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.”

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      9. @ Pray October 27, 2022 at 6:08 am

        Hello Pray, the problem with the pretrib doctrine is that it is based on a supposition which pretribbers then take and try to mould into verses which say no such thing.

        Let’s look at 2nd Thessalonians 2

        “5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way”

        We don’t know what or who is restraining the man of sin from being revealed. Some people suggest that its Michael the arc angel. But the stated view shared by the pretrib community is that the Holy Spirit is removed with the church at the rapture They use this argument to support the atrocious notion of separate group of Christians who will suffer the wrath of God which pretribbers wrongly believe to be poured out during the great tribulation.
        I wholeheartedly reject this notion.

        In your argument, you are adapting to the challenge against your false doctrine with a re-invented stance on this passage. But your argument still isn’t backed by the scriptures. I notice that you have replaced the letter ‘h’ with the capital letter ‘H’ in an effort to push your notion that the Holy Spirit is removed. This is dishonest and shows that you are happy to deceive yourself and others if possible.

        The truth is that ALL of God’s saints are spared from the wrath of God which will be poured out AFTER the tribulation.

        With regard to Zechariah, I’ve already explained that prophecies can be easily misinterpreted. In Isaiah’s prophecy concerning the ministry of John the Baptist we see a description of seismic events happening. But when this prophecy comes to pass, we see that the prophecy was using figurative language.

        Here is Isaiahs’s prophecy concerning the ministry of john the Baptist
        “Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;”
        And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.”

        Now let’s look at Zechariahs prophecy:

        “Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south”

        You can see that both prophecies use seismic language.

        In the light of the prophecy concerning John the Baptist we see that the language is figurative. So, we should not build a doctrine on the assumption that it is literal, because it may not be.

        But you think you know better and select this verse and interpret it with a bias to suit your false doctrine.

        One could argue that Christ stood on the mount of olives when he walked this earth and that Zechariah is a figurative description of this event. Jesus stood on the mount of olives from where he ascended into heaven. So, there are different possible interpretations of this prophecy.

        I have checked ALL of the verses in the list you gave and not one of them mentions a MILLENNIAL reign where Christ dwells on this earth for a thousand years. It looks like you just reeled off a list from a concordance or commentary without any proper consideration of what was being said.

        Zion is the eternal city of God and is not limited to a mere 1000 years. Christ will rule from the heavenly mount Zion and will dwell in the heavenly Jerusalem. He and the saints will dwell in a new heavens and a new earth which is fit for the glorified Christ and his glorified saints.

        We are told in Hebrews …
        22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,”

        After the rapture Christ will rule from the heavenly Zion which is the eternal city of God and is not limited to a mere 1000 years
        The problem is that you are interpreting Old Testament prophecies through a false narrative. For example, you quote Isaiah 9:6-7 in support of a millennium reign on earth but Isaiah 9:6-7 is NOT about a millennium reign of Christ because it says “Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.
        This is speaking of a never ending kingdom and NOT about a millennial kingdom. A millennial kingdom would only last one thousand years. But once again you ignore what the passage is saying and misappropriate it to mean something which it is not saying.

        With regard to the millennium mentioned in Revelation you need to understand that it is mentioned in a prophecy in a book which uses much symbolism. But let’s be clear Revelation does NOT say that Christ will dwell on earth during this millennial reign.
        Prophecies in Revelation and also in the Old Testament use symbolic and figurative language which only God can properly interpret. So, we cannot use prophecies to dismiss the clear teaching of Christ and his apostles.

        In the light of clear teaching, I do not see Christ and his glorified saints dwelling on this earth which we know will be destroyed as stated by Peter in 2nd Peter 3

        What I’m saying is that Christ and his saints will not be dwelling on an earth which will be in tatters during and after the period of wrath. Consequently, this earth will be burned up and the current heavens will pass away, but we will dwell in a new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

        “10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”

        “13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

        You quoted Zechariah 14:5
        “Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You.”

        This is correlates with the rapture which happens after the great tribulation.
        When Christ returns the dead in Christ will rise first and after that the Christians who are alive on the earth will see Christ accompanied by the resurrected saints and will then be caught up to meet with them in the air which is why Paul says

        “13To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.”

        There is no mention here of Christ setting foot on this earth.

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      10. Anthony William:
        October 27, 2022, at 10:50 am

        With regard to Zechariah, the foolish virgins in Christ’s Bride are without the mind of Christ’s Spirit, and therefore they will misinterpret prophecy. In Isaiah’s prophecy concerning the ministry of Elijah’s second coming, we see a description of seismic events happening. But when this prophecy of the two witnesses comes to pass, we will see that the prophecy was NOT using figurative language as the foolish virgins assume.

        Here is Isaiah’s prophecy concerning the second coming of the Elijah ministry’s cleansing refining fire:
        “Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low, and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;” And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.”

        Now let’s look at Zechariah’s prophecy:
        “Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south”

        You can see that both prophecies use seismic language. In light of the prophecy concerning the second coming of Elijah, we see that the language is literal. So, many foolish virgins in Christ’s Bride have built their false pre-tribulation doctrine on the carnal-minded assumption that it is figurative.

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      11. Anthony, regarding your response to my commentary on 2 Thessalonians 2:7-9 and in particular, verse 7, “I notice that you have replaced the letter ‘h’ with the capital letter ‘H’ in an effort to push your notion that the Holy Spirit is removed,”

        I didn’t do any replacements with capital letters – I was merely quoting the New King James Version (NKJV). If you have an issue with that, you’ll have to take it up with the original translators: copyright 1992 by Thomas Nelson, Inc. Since that was completed only 30 years ago, some of them may still be alive.

        Although, the NKJV is my “go-to” bible, I mentioned that other people believe the “taken away” could be interpreted as “stepping aside.” Here is the New Living Translation (NLT):
        “For this lawlessness is already at work secretly, and it will remain secret until the one who is holding it back steps out of the way.”

        Obviously, this is one of the most hotly contested scriptures by both pre- and post-tribulation adherents. I’ve already mentioned I am pre-trib, but I do respect others’ rights to disagree and hope we can all civilly debate without accusing one another of deliberately misleading or peddling error. After all, as Paul exhorted all of us believers in Ephesians 4:31-32 – “Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.” We can all be passionate about what we believe without attacking. Besides, it’s a really bad witness to unbelievers when they see us pecking at each other like a bunch of barnyard chickens. To wrap this one up, since I’m no Greek or Hebrew scholar, and since 2 Thessalonians 2:7-9 is a difficult passage to rightly divide, I won’t go any further with it.

        But I still have some questions regarding your original two statements:

        “When Jesus returns in the clouds of heaven, he does not set foot on this earth. He stays in heaven with his saints and pours out his wrath on the world,”

        “When I read Revelation, I see that during the millennial kingdom Christ and his saints remain in heaven and rule from heaven. There is no mention in Revelation of Christ and his saints dwelling on this earth during the millennium,”

        I’m certain that you must believe all the Old Testament prophecies about the first coming of Jesus, because they were all absolutely fulfilled, but I’m curious as to whether or not you believe there are any OT prophecies about the second coming of Yeshua? I’m preparing a response to your commentaries on the OT scriptures that I provided to you, which I believe prophecy His Millennial reign in the physical, geological Jerusalem in Israel (Psalm 2:6, Psalm 110:2, Isaiah 2:2-4 9:6-7, and 24:21-23, Jeremiah 3:17, Ezekiel 43:7, Zechariah 2:10-14, 8:2-3, and 14:1-10, Joel 3:14-21, Zephaniah 3: 14-20, and Micah 4:7). Just to get a better idea of where you may be coming from, may I ask if you believe in any of the tenets of “Replacement Theology”? I don’t adhere to this particular doctrine, but if I knew where you stand in regard to this, I could more effectively respond to your comments. Thank you.

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      12. When someone says that Christ and the believers remain in Heaven after Christ’s “return,” there is little chance that you have any common ground with them to argue your points. I’d like to know what they do with the New Heavens and the New Earth. If they remain in Heaven, what is the point of a new earth? If the Eternal State or New Earth and New Heaven come immediately after Christ’s “return” to earth–and there is no Millennium–then what is the purpose of having a new earth? Or don’t they believe the scripture when it says there will be a New Heaven and New Earth?

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      13. Hi Rela,

        You really pointed out the logic here. Great comments! I also enjoyed your first post, especially when you said “The entire OT looks forward to the Messianic Kingdom when the earth will be restored to what it was originally intended and be ruled by Messiah, before the New Heaven and New Earth come after his reign here. He didn’t just come to save from sin…He came to reign. He has always reigned in Heaven, but he is not now reigning on earth because of the evil ruler of this world.” It may be that sometimes people don’t distinguish enough between the first coming and second coming. The first time He came as the sacrificial Lamb of God, and rode on a lowly donkey into Jerusalem. The second time He will come as the Lion of the tribe of Judah, riding a war horse, to rule the world from Jerusalem.

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      14. @Rela October 27, 2022 at 8:29 pm

        Hello Rela
        If you read my comment, you will see that I said He and the saints will dwell in a new heavens and a new earth which is fit for the glorified Christ and his glorified saints.”

        I’m not saying that Christians won’t inhabit the new earth. The whole point of a new earth is that it will be suitable for the habitation of Christ and his glorified saints.

        I’m saying that when we are raptured, we are taken from THIS earth whilst the day of wrath proceeds so that we do not suffer the wrath of God. We will remain with Christ in heaven until God creates a new heavens and a new earth which will be fit for the habitation of God and his now glorified immortalised saints.

        We need to realise that the heavens and the earth will be destroyed during the day of wrath.
        But Christ and his saints will not dwell on a broken earth during that period of time.

        We as Christians should be looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth. I’m not talking about a recycling of this earth. I’m talking about a whole new cosmos. we are told in Rev that there will be no need of a sun.

        The old heavens will also be done away with.
        This is a whole new cosmos and a new earth.

        Noah and Lot were a shadow of what’s to come but the new heavens and new earth which will be inhabited by Christ and his glorified saints will be far superior to the current heavens and earth and will last for eternity.

        11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

        12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

        If we look at these verses, we see that life on this earth is finished and it is consequently done away with. it has served its purpose.

        Moving on to the nest chapter we see a new heaven and a new earth which is fit for the habitation of God himself. Now God is able to dwell on the NEW earth in all his glory.

        So, we see the new Jerusalem coming down from heaven

        1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

        “2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

        3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.”

        In the Old Testament we saw the tent of meeting followed by the temple. But now we see an eternal city where God will dwell with his people forever.

        This is what Peter is referring to, when he says

        “13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

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    4. Roy, your thinking is flawed and is rooted in this temporal life. We were never meant for this world. The Bride of Christ will not be “Beaten up” as you say but will be purified and made white and tried as the angel told Daniel. Be careful that you are not partaking in the same mentality that Jesus reproofed Peter for- when Peter was rebuking Jesus about speaking of his persecution and soon to come death.

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  38. You hit this spot on brother. Great commandment LOVE your neighbor and I saw this up close and real last Friday in Bayside Estates, Ft Myers going from home to home in 55+ community, and this was with my day work job, ……too much to detail here…but that got a 12 foot high storm surge, hearing their stories and giving them food and praying for them………. LOVE, most powerful force in all creation. God is Love.

    Jeff ________________________________

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  39. All I can say is that might be the actual amount of people left on the planet after the tribulation. They get their wish but chances are they’ll be dead already and if not, to hell they go when Christ returns. Psalm 73 is a good reminder what’s in store for them. Jesus will rule and reign! I find it interesting how these wicked people want what the millennium will provide but they don’t want the King. Sorry wicked ones – this planet isn’t yours and you’re not in control.

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  40. Thanks Leo! I’m trying to get stocked up and prepare for Self-Defense measures. Guess what I got?…. I’m through trying to wake family & friends but this info has to get out and stir a nerve” to stand up and as John Lennon once said “Come Together” Unite and Fight (Peacefully) If We can, but we have to have a “Hell NO!,,,We Won’t Go!” attitude!
    Their “Glow-Bull-Re-Sit’ and NWO they can have up Klod hopper Schwabs big behind or down Gates of hell’s piles of cash, You Murderous, Soulless demons!….. Somethin’s probably up around Election coming up, Pardon, I mean Selection. The Good News is in the end these devils go to hell and Jesus Christ Yahshua Returns! His NWO or Global- Reset is the One I want!

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  41. Interesting. The return of Christ and the rapture of his church will accomplish a reduction of people on the earth. However, I don’t think the ‘globalists’ will be very happy with what’s left!

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Unfortunately brother, there is no rapture. At least no pre-trib rapture. Sure wish there were. Nevertheless, God will protect His church, the remnant. The Israel of God, the Body of Christ, will be protected by the Holy Spirit while literal Hell on earth ensues. I firmly believed in a pre-tribulation “rapturing” of the church, until I came across David Carrico’s teachings. I can’t recommend his “Doctrine of Christ” series and the NYSTV “Midnight Ride” teachings enough. David is one of the most informed, biblically sound teachers of God’s word I’ve ever come across.

      Regardless, best to you and your family. Lets pray for each other in these dark days.

      Liked by 2 people

      1. That’s an outstanding comment. David’s work is known to be far greater and more revealing than Jesus’ words in the Bible. For now on we will all base our faith on Mr Carrico’s teachings. We should all be looking forward to the tribulation instead of Christ. Thanks for the heads up in these dark days.

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      2. I don’t know who David Carrico is so I’m not vouching for any of his teachings, but please do cite a scripture reference where Jesus told us there would be a pre-tribulation rapture.

        Liked by 4 people

      3. 6 out of 7 churches listed in Revelation will in fact go through the tribulation and most will be killed. Only the Church at Philadelphia is counted worthy to escape it. Rev. 3:10. And Jesus is returning in the Rapture just like He promised, only for those who are expectantly awaiting His return. The foolish virgins will miss it because they have no oil in their lamps and are not ready.

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      4. @ Jay October 26, 2022 at 2:23 am

        Hello Jay
        Rev. 3:10 says :
        “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

        The verse uses the word “because” which is referring to what the Philadelphian church has done BEFORE receiving the letter but you apply the verse to today’s Christians in an effort to support the notion of a pretribulation rapture for today’s church.

        Since Rev. 3:10 was written, millions of Christians have been tortured and killed for their testimony. Even today in countries like Nigeria, Christians are being martyred for their testimony for Christ. So, today’s Christians are not exempt from tribulation.

        The pretribulation rapture is a false doctrine and is not found in the bible. Instead, it is based on a misinterpretation of the scriptures and on verses which have been removed from their context such as the verse you have mentioned

        So, to conclude:

        (1) Rev. 3:10 does not even mention the rapture.

        (2) Rev. 3:10 does not say that future Christians will be exempt from the great tribulation.

        (3) Jesus clearly says that the rapture takes place at his second coming AFTER the great tribulation.

        Liked by 3 people

      3. They’ve had $$ BILLIONS$$ and $ BILLIONS and a mass of Materials and Places but here they are wanting to Control , Own us people! They thirst for more and more and they’ve ”kicked the can down the proverbial road” way too far & long and they’re now treading in GOD’s territory and their perverse thirsts and desires will follow them into hell! No, I reckon they aren’t too happy, or satisfied, but they will Receive their FINAL REWARD very, very Soon, and they will have Eternity to be unhappy in and dis-satisfied.

        Liked by 1 person

      4. Their faces look strangely unhappy considering that they’ve triumphed. The eyes are full of insatiable craving. Their mouths twist spasmodically as though with fear or pain.
        Mere caricatures of what they were meant to be.
        Examples: Christia Freeland, Rochelle Walinski, Mark Zuckerberg, and of course Schwab, Soros and Gates. Some older politicians have gotten visibly grotesque after making their deals during (I assume) the Covid mass hysteria.
        I call it the Global Look.

        Liked by 3 people

    4. Phil:
      October 25, 2022 at 8:03 pm

      The cleansing Flood in Noah’s day raptured away 100% of the world’s wicked population. Likewise, the cleansing holocaust of the Lord’s coming Judgment Day will rapture up in smoke and flames the digitally-marked population of the Marxist Beast’s Socialistically-Secured UN Global Village. The Judgment Day’s flood and refining fires of God’s wrath exterminate the Devil’s deluded children of darkness, rapturing every one of them into outer darkness, away from the Lord’s cleansed new heavens and new earth.

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